Timothy Furnish: Again, thank you for this opportunity. And I appreciate it
Adnan Oktar: Thank you. It is a privilege and an honor.
Timothy Furnish: I wanted to ask in general about three areas. Darwinism, Islamic Union and belief in the Mahdi. So with your permission we will start with Darwinism.
Timothy Furnish: Some Muslim scholars have argued that Islam is actually compatible with evolutionary theory or Darwinism, and obviously you disagree. Could you explain why?
Adnan Oktar: Ask them whether the djinn and the angels evolved or not and you will see they immediately change their minds.
Timothy Furnish: Good point.
Adnan Oktar: For example, the Prophet Musa cast down his staff and it immediately turned into a serpent. There is no evolution there. That snake was a normally reproducing, hunting, an ordinary, common snake. The Prophet Jesus made something in the shape of a bird out of mud and breathed on it, turning it into a normal flying, egg-laying, reproducing bird. There is no evolution in that. What could Muslim scientists may say about that, the truth is there for all to see.
Timothy Furnish: In the West, particularly in the United States, opposition to Darwinism is seen, by many on the secular left, and by many intellectuals in America, as evidence of someone who is irrational. Are you afraid that this will happen or has this already happened in your experience with the same view in Islam.
Adnan Oktar: There are hardly any Darwinists left in Turkey, some 95% of Turkey no longer believes in Darwinism. There is no such problem in Turkey. But as for this application in America, there is a very strong Darwinist lobby there, and the anti-Darwinists as opposed to it are weak and powerless. If I were there, they would not have the field to themselves. They would immediately collapse and abandon that kind of language.
They would immediately be defeated. This temporary behavior of theirs stems from the fact they are far away from us.
The people who should really be treated as mad are those who ignore 100 million fossils even though they exist. It is those who say, despite the fact it is scientifically impossible for a protein to form by chance, that it can happen through a miracle, by chance, and those who still espouse Darwinism despite the absence of any transitional form fossils. It is those who abstain to understand even though the false nature of the skulls have been brought into the light. If we are to look for anyone with a mental problem, it is those people we should turn our eyes to.
Timothy Furnish: Your views in this topic are very similar to those of conservative Evangelical Christians in the United States. Have you been in contact with any christian groups and tried to work, sort of on a common front against Darwinism in this regard.
Adnan Oktar: We did hold such a conference in Turkey many years ago, and they came for that. We lost touch after that, but there needs to be. So I would like to invite them back from here, through you. It is of the greatest importance for Christians, Muslims and Jews to join forces against Darwinism, against materialism and against atheism. Insha’Allah there will be intensive co-operation on that issue from now on.
Timothy Furnish: That was.. that leads right to my next question which I was going to ask to you if you see Islamic and Christian creationism as a tool to unite or at least to get, to some extent to get Muslims and Christians to work together. Now we are already starting to see this in United States with, on certain moral issues, for instance opposition to homosexual marriages, Christians and Muslims have been working together in certain parts of the States- so to what degree, hopefully, it seems that you hope that this will happen in the future, sort of serve as a rallying in uniting point of Christians and Muslims. ..
What was my question? My question was, do you intend this to be something that you intend to carry forward in the future. I guess that has partially have been answered in the previous response. Again this one has been somewhat answered but I wanted to follow up a little bit. What has been the reception to Islamic creationism, I guess if that is a correct term, if that’s an acceptable term, in the rest of the islamic world outside of Turkey?
Adnan Oktar: Turkey is in a position to lead Islamic countries, and if that is how Turkey is, they will also be very good. The level of belief in Darwinism is of course very low in them, too. That is not how it was in the past, of course; it used to be very high, but following our activities it has fallen by 70-80% lower. If 20% of people used to believe in Darwinism, it is now just 1%-2% in some places. If 70% used to believe in it, that has also changed very much, the level of belief in Darwinism falling to 10% or 20%. Darwinism is a really minority intellectual system in the Islamic world today. It is very hard to find any believers in it.
Timothy Furnish: At one point you have written or the organization have written- “ Darwinism is the religion of the Dajjal or of the Anti-Christ”, and I translated that as the Dajjal. I just wanted to know if you could explain that, perhaps, more fully?
Adnan Oktar: The Dajjal is an atheist, faithless intellectual system that will be diametrically opposed faithful segment of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, in other words to Muslims, Christians and Jews, in the end times. It is currently represented by Darwinism. This has never been such an organized and wide-ranging atheist rebellion, atheistic plot in the history of world. This is the first time that it has been such wide-ranging. For that reason, Darwinism is really the system of the Dajjal of the endtimes. It is the system of the Dajjal with one blind eye, that looks at the world in materialist terms, not through the eyes of truth. The Dajjal has been described in the End Times. Technology in the time of the Dajjal has been described. We are told that the Dajjal will fly in the air, in other words that there will be air transport at that time, that it will be possible to touch the sea bed, that it will be possible to trawl the sea bed with nets for instance, that it will be possible to see over great distances, that there wil be mechanized agriculture without the use of animals, that the field will be plowed without oxen – which is what mechanized agriculture is. The age of the Dajjal has been described in great detail in accounts. We are now in that age. It is claimed that spiritual matters will be eliminated in that time and that the Dajjal will claim to be divine. And they have now made deities out of matter and chance. This is the first time in world history there has been such an organized atheist movement. This is the system of the Dajjal of the End Times.
Timothy Furnish: Some Christian creationists, particularly conservative American Christian creationists say that you cannot believe in evolution; other Christian groups, particularly the Roman Catholic Church officially say that you can believe in evolution but you just have to believe that Allah directed it. So what is your view on this matter?
Adnan Oktar: If there were such a thing as evolution, I would believe in it. I would say, ‘That is how Allah created.’ But there is very definitely no such thing. How can one believe in a false idea? Darwinism is no more logical, or even less logical, than someone saying, ‘There is a civilization on Mars, but we cannot see it, because it is underground.’ If Darwinism had actually happen, one would admit it. A Muslim could say, ‘That is how Allah created.’ And I would say, ‘So that is how Allah created.’ But there is no such thing. One hundred million fossils prove creation, and these are fossils dating back 100, 200, 300, 400 or 500 million years. No change ever took place in living things, nor in plants, nor in insects, and they have always been the same as they are today. How can we believe in something that does not exist? Proteins cannot come into being by chance, and there exists not one single intermediate form fossil, and there is no evidence for Darwinism. It is a totally specious claim. Darwin himself says that if there are no transitional form fossils then his theory is wrong. And there are no transitional forms. They have looked everywhere in the world, they have been excavating for the last 150 years, but there are none. It is a miracle how they manage to believe in it. It is unbelievable, and that is quite astonishing. In 10 or 20 years’ time people will be amazed at themselves and wonder, ‘How did we ever believe in that?’
Timothy Furnish: Thank you. With your permission I would like to move on to questions on Islamic union and the caliphate, which I should mention is the topic of my next book that I am writing - the caliphate and ideas of Islamic Union. So twenty or thirty years ago Maldudi, the famous Pakistani theologian, advanced an idea of Pan-Islamic union and I wanted to ask how the ideas of Islamic Union that you hold differ from Maldudi’s?
Adnan Oktar: What I am talking about is the formation of a Turkish-Islamic Union under Turkish leadership with the support of the Turkic states. About these states remaining within their own borders, with their own governments, their forming a union like the European Union, forming a military pact reminiscent of NATO, and it being based on such emotions as love, affection, compassion and solidarity, and constructed on honesty and sincerity. The continuation of the secular system in Turkey, non-interference in the regimes in other countries, but their living by Islamic moral values and in love, peace and brotherhood.
Timothy Furnish: This sounds almost like what I would call Neo-Ottomanism. It sounds almost like calling for a sort of new version of the Ottoman Caliphate. Is that what you are saying?
Adnan Oktar: It is not essential for us to refer to the person at the head of the Islamic world as a caliph, because this is a union of love and friendship and brotherhood. There needs to be someone at the head of the union who symbolizes it and performs the important task of holding the union together. One could refer to them as a president or a leader, there is no great need to talk of a caliph.
Timothy Furnish: How would you differentiate this from the Islamic Union, which groups like Hizbul Tahrir would like to bring about?
Adnan Oktar: In the union I am talking about, love, peace, brotherhood, rational thinking and attaching importance to art and beauty predominate. Attaching importance to well-being, peace, human freedom and democracy predominate. A deep love and respect for and dialogue with Christians and Jews predominates. To my way of thinking, for example, Armenians are also in the Turkish-Islamic Union. There is therefore no claim of any racial, bloodline or genetic superiority. There is love and affection. There is therefore no harshness, nothing to make people uneasy or unhappy. It is a system that strives for human happiness and joy.
Timothy Furnish: Okay. A related question then; obviously then Hizbul Tahrir and Al-Qaida have a different view of the caliphate and they talk about reestablishing the caliphate. I realize that the Islamic Union is not exactly the same as the caliphate but it is an idea of Islamic Union. How will you win over people like Hizbul Tahrir and Al-Qaida who hope to establish Islamic Union through force?
Adnan Oktar: Love is much stronger then violence, love is a thousand times greater than violence. And violence is something repulsive, it has the opposite effect on modern, civilized people. People are influenced by love, scientific accounts, suggestion, sincerity and beauty. All the prophets have preached the faith in that way. There is no compulsion in the faith. That is a verse from the Qur’an. In other words, if religion is imposed on someone he will be a hypocrite, insincere in other words. And the faith is fiercely opposed to insincerity. It says that people will be saved when they are sincere. Violence is equivalent to insincerity. The faith must be preached in a spirit of love, brotherhood and friendship, stressing its beauty, and if that person then accepts the faith, he will be truly devout, and becomes so in a logical and rational state.
Timothy Furnish: I was in Iran in August for a conference which I will talk about in a bit when I talk about the Mahdi ,but I did want to ask the view that I got in Iran that Islamic union, at least the Iranian view, the Shia view of it, will only be established when the Mahdi comes. Are you saying that some sort of Islamic Union can be established before the coming of the Mahdi, by human efforts?
Adnan Oktar: It will be fully established in the true sense in the time of the Mahdi, but it is also possible before that. At the least, the appropriate foundations can be prepared. All the necessary conditions for that union to come about can be brought about. But this Islamic Union can only properly come about with the appearance of the Mahdi. In other words, it will be very difficult for Islamic countries to unite under other circumstances. It has never happened yet in the absence of the Mahdi. But it definitely will do in his time.
Timothy Furnish: Would the head of this Islamic Union be a political and a spiritual authority? just a political authority? or some combination thereof? What exactly would be his position of these in the entire Islamic World?
Adnan Oktar: He will be a spiritual leader, someone who is greatly loved, whose every word is profoundly respected. It will not be an official leadership, but one based on love. He will resolve every issue with love, affection, compassion and friendship. The Mahdi is described as ‘not waking the sleeping man, nor shedding any blood’ in accounts. They say that in the age of the Mahdi even the fish in the sea and the birds in the air will be content with him. There will be a climate of peace, love and beauty, one based on compassion.
Timothy Furnish: What about the leader of the Islamic Union if there is one, before the coming of the Mahdi. What will his role be and will he be elected? How will he be chosen?
Adnan Oktar: To say the truth this will not be possible with anyone else other the Mahdi. Even if it did his strength will be very insubstantial, as it is right now. There are some at the moment there are presidents of the Islamic union at the moment, but they are almost non-existent. They do not attract any attention and their efficiency is almost not existing.
Timothy Furnish: There are some in the West , in the United States and in Europe particularly, who probably would see an Islamic Union as a threat. What would you say to anyone who might see it that way?
Adnan Oktar: This is a union that removes threat. It is a system that eliminates terror, violence and the concept of hostility toward other countries, that eliminates racial and religious hostility. There is a huge respect for other faiths in this system, and a feeling of protecting them, deep respect and affection for them and a conception of love, and a desire for all countries to be strong, healthy and at peace. There is no idea of any country being brought down, but one of all countries remaining healthy and good, of every country having its own color and beauty. That is why it is a system that eliminates threats. Because it is a system with no racial superiority, but one that is exceedingly respectful of other faiths.
Timothy Furnish: At one point you have written that; quote: “Setting up the Islamic Union will cause the danger of the clash of civilizations to disappear” which sounds like sort of what we are talking about here, but isn’t there a sense in which an Islamic Union seems to foster the clash of civilizations by setting up particularly Islam in an Islamic Alliance, I guess against the Christian Alliance.
Adnan Oktar: The Islamic Union is not opposed to a Christian alliance. It is a union that allies itself with Christianity. Because we are talking of the coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). The Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will return in 10 or 15 years. Christians and Jews and Muslims are all awaiting him with great excitement. Jews are also awaiting the Messiah, but the Messiah we and Christians in particular are awaiting is the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). We are awaiting the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) together with the Christian world and experiencing the excitement of that. So how can they be diametrically opposed to us? We have a common love and expectation, we are awaiting the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). There will therefore be a complete alliance, and no division.
Timothy Furnish: What would be the role of existing Islamic-based international organizations in working for this union? In particular I am interested in what you think the role of the organization of the Islamic conference would be?
Adnan Oktar: Of course, these will grow increasingly stronger. Co-operation between Christians and Muslims will also gradually increase. The dimension of this will also expand. These things are all portents of the coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), and of the coming of the Mahdi. No country or power in the world can stop it. This is the world’s destiny; the return of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and the coming of the Mahdi will definitely happen, and people will experience the shock nd amazement of that in the next 10-15 years.
Timothy Furnish: Could you tell me how the Islamic Union and views of Islamic unity that you support are similar to and different from those of the Gulen movement?
Adnan Oktar: They are close, but the Gulen movement has no real idea of a Turkic Union. The way I understand it, they have the idea of a direct Islamic Union, not a Turkish-Islamic Union under Turkish leadership and supported by the Turkic states. I can correct that later if I am mistaken. But the system I describe will be more transparent and more active. Note that I describe things very clearly. The Gulen movement uses a more indirect language. They may be different in those terms, but they are very close in many others. The Gulen movement is generally very honest and genuine. It is pro-democratic, moderate and based on love and compassion, and in those times is very close to my own way of thinking. But I think that Turkey and the Turks will occupy the leading position.
Timothy Furnish: Okay. I now would like to move to the questions about the Mahdi. In 2004 you wrote that both the Mahdi and Jesus are here but have not revealed themselves yet, because of potential attacks from atheists and so on. Has that position changed? If so how?
Adnan Oktar: I definitely think the Mahdi has appeared, but I am not sure about the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). He may have appeared, or he may be about to, but I think he will definitely appear in the next 10 years, in 10-15 years.
Timothy Furnish: This is a related question. Something we said earlier. I just wanted to make sure I have this clear. Will the Mahdi create the Islamic Union or will he take control of the, sort of attempt, the early beginnings of an Islamic Union that Muslims have already been working toward?
Adnan Oktar: Of course they will great activity and hard work before that, but his saintliness will spread across the world. He will have the effect of the Sun being reflected in a mirror and its being reflected to all mankind in many mirrors. But people will be unaware of that. Imagine that they continue reflecting the Sun to one another by small mirrors, it is like that. All humanity will be under his influence, all movements aimed at the Islamic Union will be influenced by him, either consciously or subconsciously. Some will be aware and others will not. But it will be the system of the Mahdi that is the driving force. And Allah will create everything at that time, all technological advances, to be of such a kind as to support the Mahdi. The creation of the internet is for the coming of the Mahdi. It is for the growth of the Mahdi movement. This economic crisis is also something created for the development of the Mahdi movement. I mean, the global economic crisis. For example, the Iran-Iraq War is a portent of the coming of the Mahdi. The invasion of Afghanistan, the severing of the waters of the Euphrates, eclipses of the Sun and Moon in the month of Ramadan – which happened in 1981 – the birth of a comet, the attack on and bloodshed at the Kaaba, the appearance of a sign in the Sun, in the form of the greatest solar explosion of the century, a sedition with smoke and dust, which is a reference to the events of September 11, widespread slaughter, the loss of an army – and the Iraqi army disappeared in the desert – Baghdad being devastated in flames, as in the Iraq War, the reconstruction of Iraq, this is stil going on at the moment, the plantation of the deserts, the frequent storms, terrible storms like Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Ike had occurred. And the construction of tall buildings. And there are references to technology in the time of the Mahdi; people talking using a whip end, in other words the telephone and its antenna as they look like a whip, but it was described as a whip in order to allow people at that time to understand. As you know, the whip is something held in the hand resembling a phone cable. The phone is held in the hand, but the cable extends away. It looks just like a whip, and there are accounts of just such a technological advance in the time of the Mahdi. People can hear their own voices; they can record and play them back. They can listen to their own voices on video. There are accounts of this happening in the End Times. There are hundreds of similar portents. These have all happened, and within a space of 20-30 years. And these great portents in particular. They have all taken place one after the other, and are still doing so. Never before have these all happened at the same time. This is a great miracle. This is the first time, and they have all happened in the order described. People are unaware of this miracle. There are also portents of the coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). Many of these have also taken place. And they are still happening. People will be amazed when they see the Prophet Jesus, when they see he has returned. And when they see the Mahdi. There will be major events in the world in the next few years, insha’Allah.
Timothy Furnish: Now, a two-part question; does the seige of Mecca that you just referenced refer to the 1979, Cuheyman El-Uteybi, occupation of the great mosque in Mecca? And secondly what is your view - what should the Muslim view be of the leaders in the past who claimed that they were the Mahdi and started movements on that sense, that Cuheyman El-Uteybi and before that Muhammad Ahmed in Sudan and before that Muhammed al-Qureysh in Africa and so on. What has been and what should be the attitude of Muslim leaders?
INTERPRETER: What was the question about the siege of Mecca?
Timothy Furnish: Was the siege of Mecca a reference to the 1979 occupation of the Great Mosque in Mecca by the Cuheyman El Uteybi?
Adnan Oktar: For one thing, one of the main proofs that someone is not the Mahdi is the fact he claims to be so. The most evident portent of the Mahdi is his ruling the whole world and performing the namaz together with the Prophet Jesus. When that happens we will presumable say, Allah knows, this person is the Mahdi. And Allah knows, this is the Prophet Jesus, we will say. But the Mahdi will make no such claim. He will never say he is the Mahdi. The rational students around him will say no such thing at any time, either. But those people openly say that they are the Mahdi, that by itself is sufficient for them to depart from the faith. Because for someone to claim he is the Mahdi is to oppose the system set out by Allah in the Qur’an. Because someone may go to paradise or to hell. Claiming that one is the Mahdi means one is claiming to be destined for paradise. And revelation would be needed for that, a new holy scripture would have to be sent down. And since the final holy scripture is the Qur’an, such a thing is impossible. It is therefore impossible for such a person to be a Muslim.
Timothy Furnish: I am curious why you think that some of these men in the past , who claimed to be the Mahdi and obviously were very successful, at least for a time, in having a lot of followers and actually even taking power. I mean Cuheyman el-Uteybi wasn’t, but Muhammed Ahmed took over Sudan, Muhammed Abdullah al-Qureysh took over Africa, and the Fatimis for instance took over Egypt in the Middle Ages although they were a bit different, being Ismaili and not Sunni. But to what do you attribute the fact that these men sometimes gained great deals of followers despite the fact that they were false Mahdis?
Adnan Oktar: The appearance of false Mahdis is one of the portents of the coming of the Mahdi. The appearance of false messiahs is one of the portents of the coming of the Prophet Jesus. That also appears in the Gospels. We are told that false messiahs will first appear. And these people will not match the descriptions of the Mahdi in the hadith. The Mahdi’s whole body has been described. His physical appearance. But they do not resemble that. For example, the Mahdi has a broad brow, curved eyebrows, a small nose, a beard, a freckle on his cheek, a sign on his brow, black hair, wide thighs and a wide stomach. He will be of medium stature and have a mark on his back, as our Prophet had. He will be descended from the Prophet (saas), a sayyid, in other words, he will be descended from the blessed Hasan. And the accounts say his legs will be widely spaced as he walks and that his feet will point outward. Our Prophet (saas) even stated that he had the looks of Beni-Israel. I mean he says the Mahdi has a gallant and brave outlook. The accounts even state that he will have a freckle on his right leg. This has all been set out in great detail. We are told he will appear in the year 1400 (hegira style). Said Nursi says it will be in 1400. And there are these more than 30 perfectly clear portents. These are all portents which had been realized in the last 25-30 years. This has never happened during the times of those mentioned people. This is the first time. They have all happened since the year 1400 (hegira style), within 20-30 years and for the first time in the history of Islam. These are things that have happened for the first time in thousands of years. Therefore, these people’s physical appearances are wrong, and they are also wrong in terms of the portents taking place in the world and the timing. The timing is wrong, and these people’s position is inappropriate in terms of external signs, and of physical appearance. Being the Mahdi is a matter of success, not of claiming to be him. We will realize someone is the Mahdi through his success. One cannot want to be the Mahdi. Being the Mahdi has to be in one’s destiny. Those people’s claims to be the Mahdi are therefore wrong in all those regards.
Timothy Furnish: Again when I was in Iran at that conference a few months ago. I heard one paper given by an Iranian scholar discussing seriously the question whether the Mahdi and the twelve Imams, of course according to the Iranian view. When the Mahdi and the twelve Imam come, and I am asking the question in this paper by the Iranian scholar, will the Mahdi kill Jews and Christians or simply convert them? And he did say that would probably convert them but he wasn’t sure. And then at the end of the conference Ali Larijani, the speaker of the Iranian parliament, gave a speech in which he quoted one of the Imams, I believe it was the sixth imam, that the Mahdi’s rule will only come about through bloodshed and violence. Now I know you have already spoken about the wrong views of the Hizbul Tahrirs and the Al-Kaides of the world, but would you respond in the same way, I guess is my question, to the Iranian viewpoint, at least the viewpoint that i saw expressed in Iran when I was there among some scholars?
Adnan Oktar: Of course, this are not statement that are based on hadith, or based on the Qur’an. These have gradually altered over the course of time, and are accounts that are not truly reliable hadith. The main characteristic of the Mahdi is that he does not shed blood, but is affectionate and compassionate and acts in a rational manner. He says that the Mahdi will even conquer Istanbul, but with the takbir, in other words by calling on Allah. No mentioning of shedding blood there. Said Nursi says that the materialist, Darwinist system will grow as he describes the Mahdi. He says the Mahdi will entirely eradicate the materialist-Marxist system. He says he will eliminate the materialist-Darwinist system intellectually and scientifically. He says that books will be prepared to that end, he will prepare them and the books will fully discharge that function. He will be active in that respect, in summary. And he says he will start doing this in the year 1400 (hegira style). But he says that not even the Mahdi will know himself. He says his close disciples will recognize him through the light of faith. The same is also valid for Jesus. He will not be aware of himself when he first returned but the close disciples of the Jesus will recognize him through the light of faith. That is why the description of the Mahdi there is rather more appropriate to that of the Dajjal, I mean the Mahdi is not someone cruel, a shedder of blood, loveless and ruthless. We are told he will not waken the sleeper nor spill blood. Imagine the sleeping man; he will take great care to let him sleep. Don’t touch him, let him sleep, he will say. That is the kind of scrupulous person he is. We are told even the birds in the air and the fish in the sea will be happy with him. It is wrong to depict such an affectionate person as violent. There is no account to that effect. The Prophet (saas) has made no such statement. And it is incompatible with the spirit of the Qur’an. In addition, violence leads only to hypocrisy. It results in insincere people. Nobody can be forced to be a Muslim. That is done through love, and affection, and moderation. A person will either accept it or not. If not, that is his decision. That is how Allah has created him, and that, too, is for the best.
Timothy Furnish: Will the Mahdi have to be an Arab or will his racial or ethnic background be irrelevant?
Adnan Oktar: He will be descended from the Prophet (saas), and the Prophet Ibrahim. He is a sayyid, a descendant of the blessed Hassan, he will be a descendant of the Prophet (saas). As you know our Prophet is a descendant of the prophet Ibrahim. That is indicated in the Qur’an. The Qur’an says that perfect unions and great structures will continue the power of the line of the Prophet Ibrahim in the future. .. Hasan is the grandson of our Prophet (saas). Hasan is descended from him, but not a prophet.
Timothy Furnish: Some Iranian scholars have said that the Mahdi’s seat will be in Kufa, and some Sunni scholars said that his seat will be Mecca or Medinah. Where do you think the Mahdi’s seat of authority will be on earth?
Adnan Oktar: Said Nursi has clarified this. The hadith also say that the Mahdi will appear from the center of the Islamic world. In other words, the last center of the Islamic world was Istanbul. It stopped being the center of the Islamic world with the abolition of the caliphate. But Istanbul was the last center of the Islamic world. There are many hadith to the effect he will emerge from Istanbul. There is reference to places such as Basra, Kufa and Damascus, Mecca and Medina, but the center of the Islamic world has changed over time. Each time people commenting on the hadith said he would come from Basra. At another they said he would come from Kufa. But the accounts indicate he will come from the capital of the Islamic world. As the location changed, those who handed the accounts on also changed their descriptions. That is what it stems from. But the hadith speak of the capital of the Islamic world. In terms of the where the Mahdi will emerge from. The latest capital. And that is Istanbul. That is where he will come from.
Timothy Furnish: You may have said this already, but I want to make sure I understand - will the Mahdi rule just the Islamic world or will he come to rule the entire world eventually? And what will Jesus’s role be, with the Mahdi in there?
Adnan Oktar: The Mahdi will first be the leader of the Islamic world alone. When the Prophet Jesus comes, as the Prophet Jesus was first a Jew, but then he brought Christianity in. In the same way that people used to follow the Bible, they will then leave it and turn to the Qur’an. He will call them to the Qur’an, and when that is done, the Christian and Islamic worlds will be one. And they will all be Muslims. Then the Mahdi will be the leader of the whole world. The Prophet Jesus will be his helper.
Timothy Furnish: How will the Mahdi , again this goes back to something that I experienced when i was in Iran, I went to Cami Kırahan, where of course Cami Kırahan Mosque where many Shia believed that the Mahdi will appear, the twelfth imam will appear. How will the Mahdi appear or come on to the stage of history in such a way that both Sunnis and Shia will accept him. Again for instance, many Shia seem to expect him to appear in Cami Kırahan , if that doesn’t happen how can they believe that he is indeed the Mahdi ?
Adnan Oktar: Since none of the external signs will be apparent in anyone else at the time, and since he most closely matches them, since he matches all the physical signs, in terms of physical appearance and activities and policies, firm opinions will form, and we are told that they will oblige the Mahdi to become their leader. We are told that he will not accept willingly , but only under dress.
Timothy Furnish: The view that the Mahdi and the Jesus will be together and eventually work together to unite Muslims and Christians and basically rule the world seems to on one level to sort of exclude Hindus and Buddhists and Confucians and so on. What will be the position of the non-monotheistic states and religions on the future role of the Mahdi and Jesus?
Adnan Oktar: They will also be convinced. Because they will see that this is the truth, the most logical thing, with the most sound proofs, the path best suited to human nature.
Timothy Furnish: A follow-up question then. What about those who refuse to believe? What will happen to them?
Adnan Oktar: They will be respected. That means that is how Allah has created them.
Timothy Furnish: Will the state of Israel continue to exist, according to the Mahdi. What will the position be of, not just the Jews but of the state of Israel?
Adnan Oktar: They will be in a better position; they will live in peace, and the hadith say that many of them will become Muslims. We are told that the original of the Torah will be found then, the true Torah, and that the sacred relics will be unearthed.
Timothy Furnish: One of your writings on the internet refers to the bright future awaiting the world and I can’t help but notice that in Iran there is a bright future institute dedicated to the coming of the twelve imam. Was this just a coincidence or is this by design. The phrase “bright future” ?
Adnan Oktar: There is no question of the coming of the 12 imams. The 12 imams are figures prior to the Mahdi. The last one will be the Mahdi. Eleven of them described in the accounts have already appeared. The twelfth will be the Mahdi. But there is no question of those people returning to Earth.
Timothy Furnish: Do you or your organization have any contacts or work with any other believers in the Mahdi in other countries besides Turkey? I mean people that already have a view of the Mahdi that you may share- for instance like the Iranians. Do you have any contacts with Iran, with the Bright Future institute there with another groups or organizations like that?
Adnan Oktar: It has not until now. But it can be later. I didn’t know that such an organization existed.That is interesting. I would have loved to meet them of course.
Timothy Furnish: Do you know of any such organizations or believers in the United States that you, your people work with?
Adnan Oktar: No,we don’t have any connection now. But i would have very loved to meet with Christians and talk to them about the return of the prophet Jesus. I think it will be possible to do that in the coming years.
Timothy Furnish: Recently, I think that it was just this past week, and it may still be meeting. there is a inter-faith dialogue, Christian-Muslim inter-faith dialogue, I believe it was held in Washington DC; I know the South East set of representatives, what is your opinion of such efforts, such forums?
Adnan Oktar: That is so great . I believe it will be useful.
Timothy Furnish: In one of your writings on the internet you said that, quote; “when Jesus returns he will free Christians from their myths;” would this be the Islamic view that Christians hold the myth for instance of Jesus’s crucifixion, his crucifixion and resurrection, for instance? What myths exactly does that refer to?
Adnan Oktar: Yes. The Prophet Jesus was not crucified. Allah had someone resemble him, and he was crucified instead. The Prophet Jesus was taken beyond time and space within a moment. He was taken into the presence of Allah. He will be reinstated in time and place in the End Times. We can expect this in the next 10-15 years, insha’Allah. Then there is the belief in the Trinity. It is wrong to believe in three gods, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These things will be corrected when the Prophet Jesus returns.
Timothy Furnish: Several weeks ago there was an article published in the United states by an Iranian-American who said that there was a Shia hadith that said that before the Mahdi comes a tall black man will assume the reins of power in the west. I have talked to some people, by e-mail, I have talked to some of my clerical friends in Iran who have told me that this is not true. I just wanted to get your opinion. If you have heard this hadith. Of course they said this refers to Barack Obama
Adnan Oktar: Perhaps.
Timothy Furnish: Since we are on the topic what is your opinion of president-elect Obama? Will he be good for the world?
Adnan Oktar: The coming of the Prophet Jesus and the Mahdi will bring peace to the world. Obama will have no impact. Obama is just an ordinary servant of Allah. That goes for other American presidents. There is no great difference. Because there is an American state. The American state does what it sees fit. So American leaders do not really have any power to take their own, independent decisions. But his heart seems to be in the right place.
Timothy Furnish: InshaAllah. Now here is my last and my favorite question. Since I am a huge Indiana Jones fan, where is the ark of the covenant and when will the Mahdi reveal it?
INTERPRETER: What covenant?
Timothy Furnish: The ark of the covenant? Where is it and when will the Mahdi reveal it? Is it one of the signs? I believe it is. According to some writings.
Adnan Oktar: Yes, he will find it. Allah will bring it forth, insha’Allah. The Qur’an also refers to the existence of a chest. According to the hadith, the Mahdi will find it, for which reason many Jews will become Muslims.
Timothy Furnish: Will he find it in the Holy Land? I mean will he find it in Israel, Palestine? I think I have read that perhaps somewhere, that it may be in the beneath the Sea of Galilee?
Adnan Oktar: Who knows? It may be hidden in a cave in Antakya, or in Jerusalem, somewhere near the al-Aqsa Mosque. It can be hidden in a corridor there. Or it could be in the church known as the Golden Church. Or even in Istanbul
Timothy Furnish: Thank you very much.
Adnan Oktar: Thank you. Insha’Allah we will meet again. I am pleased to have met you. It has been an honor.
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