Reporter: Different ideologies and systems of thought account for the origins of evil in different ways. They bring differing account to bear with nationalist policies or account for the origin of evil in terms of other ideologies. Your views seem to indicate that the origin of evil in the 20th century goes back to Darwinism. Isn’t this an extreme simplification of the situation?
Adnan Oktar: But that is a technical and scientific fact. From statements by Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin and Stalin, and these were the world’s most rabid and savage terrorists and spillers of blood. They have made it clear, at length and over many pages that Darwinism was the basis of their ideologies. This is not, therefore, a guess or a theory, but rather a scientific truth.
Reporter: But looking at the huge amount of evil in the world, should we not be speaking of the weakness of human nature? Because people have an intense urge for power, they all want to have power. Do you not think that such an explanation is more logical?
Adnan Oktar: What I am saying are scientific, philosophical and sociological, clearly applied truths, in other words, truths put into operation. Of course people’s weakness, imbalances and psychological flaws underlie that. But these psychological flaws, people’s aggression and unbalanced behavior all, in turn, stems from a defective faith and that defective faith stems from Darwinism. Otherwise it is impossible for someone who loves and fears Allah, who is good-natured and has fully adopted the moral values of the Qur’an to hurt a fly.
Reporter: Darwinism is today regarded as a scientific theory. We all know that. But in ethical terms it is a highly questionable theory. One or two writers on Darwin, whose names escape me at the moment, but you will know better than me, have said we should debate Darwinism only on the scientific front, not in terms of ethics. What do you think about that?
Adnan Oktar: But Darwinism is so obviously a false theory that even an 8-10-year-old child could see it; 100 million fossils have been unearthed, all petrified. We can see from these that living things have never changed in any way. There is nothing left to debate at all. Bring a 10-year-old child in and show him fossils of frogs and tortoises and other life forms, 100 or 200 or even 300 million years old. Then put the skeletons of living things around today beside them. They are exactly the same. That means there is no such thing as evolution. It is a blatant deception. It is scientifically impossible for a protein to form spontaneously. There is more information in a chromosome, a cell chromosome, than in an entire library. All the information in a huge British library, for example, is coded within the cell. There is no explanation for that. Darwin could not account for it, and since it cannot either, Darwinism is therefore an invalid theory.
Reporter: We cannot of course expect a theory to explain everything. A theory can only account for some things. Darwinism is a concept that seeks to explain the passage from one species to another. Darwinism seeks to explain the survival of the fittest and the principle of adaptation.
Adnan Oktar: On pages 172 and 280 of the English-language version of his book On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin says: “Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms?” So it is already finished. The matter is over with once you confess this.And he doesn’t leave it at that and continues: “Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?…”He asks why it is perfect. “But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?…” The matter is finished. This is an expression of complete defeat and surrender. There really are none. Not a single intermediate form fossil has ever been found. “Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.” This is not just an objection, but a fact that totally demolishes the theory. Because there is not a single intermediate form fossil. There are 100 million fossils which all prove creation. So can any such theory possibly exist? In other words, Darwin personally describes the collapse of his own theory.
Reporter: But some skeletons have been found. These have been given names like Homo erectus. When we look at these skeletons, do we not see the stages that mankind went through before becoming human? Do these skeletons not prove the existence of other forms that paved the way for human beings before what we describe as human beings existed?
Adnan Oktar: Hundreds, thousands of species resembling gibbons, chimpanzees, gorillas and other ape species have become extinct. Fossils from these can be found in the layers of the Earth. When such fossils are discovered, the majority of these are close to human or reminiscent of human beings. The gorilla today, for example, is reminiscent of human beings, as do other apes. They are animal species that resemble man. But they are still animals. That applies to all these discoveries. They are animal species that resembling to human beings. But they are perfect species on their own. In other words, there are no entities that could be intermediate forms, whose organs are still developing or that are in the developmental stage themselves. They are all normal, perfect life forms. They do the same thing in the horse sequence. Hundreds of species resembling the horse, or the horse and the donkey or some other life form have been extinct. They lived at one time, then vanished. They became extinct. If we then set them out in a line when we discover their fossils, it might seem, on the basis of their skulls, that there was some evolution going on. But that would be a totally artificial approach. In that case we could set the cat, puma, panther, jaguar and lion out in a sequence and show that they had evolved from one another. But they are all completely distinct animals. The animals portrayed in the horse evolution sequence are also completely independent animals. They were created perfectly, appeared perfectly formed, existed for a while and then disappeared. They are not evidence pointing to evolution in the horse or any other animal sequence. In order for evolution, for that claim, to be true, intermediate fossils of the kind referred to by Darwin would have to exist. So long as they do not, the theory is a totally discredited one.
Reporter: Of course the fact that these species, the animals you refer to, are perfect within themselves and fully formed does not mean that an intermediate form will not be discovered later. But what is your explanation, your alternative, when it comes to the diversity of life? Did all species begin existing at the same moment on Earth, or did they emerge in a particular sequence? What is your explanation of the diversity of life?
Adnan Oktar: On page 525 of his On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin asks “why it is that none, but none, of the fossil records provide an evidence of life forms’ intermediate and mutational changes.” What more need be said? He says there is no evidence, no evidence for his theory. Crystal clear. On page 349 of On the Origin of Species he says “there should be a very large number of intermediate forms that once existed in the past. So why is it that all the strata and formations on Earth are not packed to the brim with transitional and intermediate forms?” There are not even just one or two, let alone being jam-packed. In other words, there is no need for me to add anything when Darwin himself has admitted and proved the invalidity of his theory so clearly.
Reporter: All right, you say there is no need to say anything else. What about the appearance of human beings? How do you account for their appearance on Earth? Do you think that Allah created human beings, or how do you think they first appeared?
Adnan Oktar: At the moment it looks as if I am 1.5 meters away from you. But the fact is that I am just an image in your brain. You can understand that as follows: if you slightly rub the edges of your eye you will see that my image moves from side to side. This shows that you are dealing with an image in your brain. Allah creates the universe in that form, as an image. We do exist externally, there is matter on the outside. But we only experience their images. For instance, that glass you are seeing at the moment is in your brain. Your watch and that glass form in the same place, your brain. And a bright world forms inside the pitch-black brain. The electricity in the brain, the electrical current in the brain, maybe just a thousandth of a millimeter thick, your brain shows this electricity current as an image of you sitting in a huge perfect room. It is Allah Who creates that. He creates that clear image and my voice inside your brain. In other words, your soul reads the electricity entering your brain as my voice, and thus you perceive it as my voice. You perceive an image and a sound forming in a nerve just a hundredth or a thousandth of a millimeter through which an electrical current passes. This is something entirely metaphysical. Neither Darwin can explain it, nor science, nor anyone. Because there is someone here doing the seeing and the hearing.
Reporter: Okay, this is again.. I think this is another subject but I still want to stay in the subject of Darwinism. You say that Darwinism denies Allah. And when we look at statements by biologists do you not think that contemporary biology has to deny Allah?
Adnan Oktar: Darwinist theory explains everything in terms of chance. It therefore totally rejects the existence of Allah. In every step of the way. It says there was first some muddy water, where proteins came into being by chance; then the cell formed by chance, and then the arm, the eye, and the ear appeared by chance, and the ear began hearing by chance, after which human beings appeared, who built this civilization we see, London and Paris and Istanbul. That is what Darwinism maintains. It claims that all these things were the result of chance. Believing in chance is one thing, and in Allah quite another. Of course there is total denial here. It clearly denies Allah.
Reporter: But looking at the natural sciences, they never refer to Allah. Physics, for example, concerns itself with space and time and studies truths related to space and time. Similarly, biology studies phenomena that can be observed in living things. Maybe Darwinism never spoke of Allah out of a compulsion to be logical, on the basis of being a scientific concept, a requirement of its own nature. How do you explain that?
Adnan Oktar: Every scientist conducting scientific research in the laboratory has to work in the laboratory in his or her mind. In other words, they see images shown to them in their own brains. And they hear the sounds there. They can have no direct experience of the laboratory. The laboratory is outside them. The individual has to listen to the sound given within his brain, the information imparted to the brain. It is Allah Who gives this to human beings. One can only establish connection with the outside world by way of a screen, by watching the monitor in one’s brain. People establish contact with the outside world by watching the electricity in the brain. If scientists know when they enter their laboratories that they are watching an image in their brain, then for me these are true scientists. But if they are unaware they are watching images in the brain, if they are unable to see such an obvious fact, then for me they are not scientists at all.
Reporter: You have said it is a scientific fact that Darwinism is the root of today’s evils. You have referred to Hitler and Mussolini and described how their own statements show their dependence on Darwinism. But could people like Hitler and Mussolini not have misunderstood Darwinism? Because Hitler based his ideology on several thinkers, not just on Darwinism.
Adnan Oktar: In the same way, Stalin and Lenin were also inspired by Darwin in this respect. They also had many sources of inspiration. But they drew their main beliefs, their principle structure, from Darwin, and that is what matters. In other words, they drew their denial of Allah, the idea of the strong eliminating the weak and their other ideas about life from Darwin’s theories. And they openly stated as much in their books. These are all known fact. Karl Marx, for instance, says, “This is the book that contains the historic basis of our views.” Why does he say that? He says that Darwinism is a major edifice – “it represents the basis of the class struggle in terms of natural history. This is the book that contains all the historic basis of our views.” He says that is where all his thinking comes from. That is a very clear statement. Trotsky says that Darwin’s discovery represents the greatest dialectical victory in the whole field of organic matter. Mao says that Chinese socialism is also based on Darwinism and the theory of evolution. Stalin says we must teach the young the age of the Earth, its geological origins and the teachings of Darwin. He says there are three things that must be taught. Lenin says that Darwin put an end to the idea that animal and plants species were unrelated to one another, that Allah created them and that they therefore never change. This is Lenin’s view. Hitler says that the fact that the German race has become mixed up with other races over the course of history has cost it world dominion. He said the German race could rule the world. He says that if you remove the northern Germans from the history of mankind, all that is left is a monkey dance. Those are Hitler’s words. Hitler was very outspoken on the subject. He issued many statement openly describing the link with Darwinism. Hitler said there would be no civilization without constant war. He said that constant struggle is essential. There is what Darwin thought about the Turks. “Civilized human races will wipe uncivilized races from the face of the earth. And will replace them.” That is what Darwin says. Wherever you look, there is an air of fascism. Wherever you look, there is the stench of the violence of communism. There are hundreds such statements. I am just summarizing them.
Reporter: There are many terrorist attacks taking place in the world today. They really stepped up in the wake of September 11 in particular. In trying to make these terrorist attacks a reality for example Osama bin Laden took extracts from the Qur’an. That does not, of course, mean that Islam is in favor of terrorist actions. We cannot conclude that. But does the same not apply to those people you have just mentioned? Does the fact that those people employed passages from Darwinism and used them in their own messages necessarily mean it is a bad ideology, one that supports terror?
Adnan Oktar: People who engage in terror under the name of Islam are always people who have received a Darwinist, materialist, socialist education in Europe, who have a huge admiration for communist guerillas, who espouse ideas disguised as Islam but that actually have nothing to do with it, and who are great admirers of terrorism. They are great admirers of Ho Chi Minh, of Che, which is why it is impossible to describe them as Muslims in the sense we commonly understand. In other words, it is not enough for someone’s ID card to say they are Muslim. Muslims fear Allah and know that they will have to account for their deeds in the hereafter. They can never kill and bomb women, children and innocent people. These are sins. It is impossible for a Muslim to harm a fly or a bird or any living thing, let alone do things like that, for they are sins. That is why it is irrational to ascribe to Islam these actions perpetrated by people who have received a Marxist education, who admire Darwin, who are materialists and have been educated in America or Europe or England or anywhere else. That is how we should be looking at things.
Reporter: In their statements regarding the theory of evolution, modern biologists say that it is not the strongest who will survive, but those best able to adapt, able to adapt fastest to changing conditions. We should therefore be speaking of the survival of the fastest adapting, rather than of the fittest.
Adnan Oktar: That is not something that alters what I say. For example, a strong lion will of course see off a cat. That is Allah’s creation. A tank will knock down a house. That is only logical. But that is nothing to justify Darwinism.
Reporter: Do you think that Darwinism is inflicting severe damage today?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. For instance, the number of dead, of people murdered, slaughtered by the communists in the USSR is 20 million. Communist China killed 65 million people. Communist Vietnam killed 1 million people. Communist Korea killed 2 million. Communist Cambodia killed 2 million. Communists in Eastern Europe killed 1 million people, and communists in Latin America 150 ,000. Communists in Africa killed 1.7 million people. They killed 1.5 million people in Afghanistan. The Second World War, caused by Hitler’s fascism, cost the lives of 55 million. That is still going on, under the guise of terrorist activity, but it is Darwinists and materialists behind the terrorist activity under the name of communism or Islam.
Reporter: Can we then deduce from what you say that the terrorist attacks committed today in India, in Madrid or in London will not be perpetrated any more if Darwinism comes to an end?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. Things will change very profoundly. This will only be in the time of the coming of the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus. We are told that prior to the coming of the Messiah the world will be in chaos and that dajjals will emerge. That is destiny. Allah’s destiny. It is Allah Who created Darwin. It is a Allah Who created Stalin and Lenin and Hitler. Allah also created the chaos caused by them. He will send the Messiah against it and eliminate all these scourges and chaos. People knowingly went along with them. When the Prophet Jesus comes they will this time willingly and knowingly abide by his excellent words. This is a test from Allah. With the Mahdi’s global dominion and the Islamic world enjoying freedom from corruption with the Mahdi’s destruction of the Dajjal, they will all be able to live in peace.
Reporter: In one of your interviews, you once said that the question of Turkey’s joining the EU is directly related with the situation of Darwinism in Turkey. In an interview with al-Jazeera you said evaluations are made among EU countries. Analyses are being made suggesting that Turkey should not be made a member, the reason being, you say, that Turkey has come out so strongly against Darwinism and that EU countries are uneasy at this.
Adnan Oktar: Yes. That is true.
Reporter: Do you think Turkey should join the European Union?
Adnan Oktar: Of course, it will join the EU as the leader of the Turkish-Islamic world, all the Turkic states and the whole Islamic world. It will free Europe and the whole world from this economic crisis and also from this spiritual crisis, this moral collapse, this lack of spiritual energy. It will turn the world into a place of festivity, of rejoicing, and this activity under Turkish leadership will save the world. Insha’Allah, I hope. That is destiny, insha’Allah.
Reporter: Do you think that the origins of the current economic crisis go back as far as Darwinism?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. Of course. This lack of trust in Allah, this selfish way of thinking, this greed and discontent all stem from Darwinist philosophy. These are just a few of the main sociological, scientific reasons for the crisis. There will be a comprehensive global collapse, an economic collapse. This is something described by our Prophet (saas) before the coming of the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus, and a great miracle. Despite all its best efforts, the world will be unable to save itself from economic collapse. But in the time of the Mahdi and Jesus there will be a diametrically opposite age of wealth and abundance. These facts I am talking about will happen in 10-20 years. Insha’Allah, you and I and everyone will live to see it.
Reporter: If I have understood you correctly, you are saying that this economic crisis will persist for another 10-20 years, and that the problem will be resolved with the coming of the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus in 10-20 years’ time.
Adnan Oktar: The Qur’an indicates 7 years. It began in 2007. This is set out in Sura Yusuf. The Qur’an refers to an economic crisis. It speaks of it in only one place, and that is a verse referring to the age of the Mahdi. There is an indication there that the crisis will last for 7 years. So it will probably last until 2014. There is even a sign in the Qur’an, in that same sura, that we should be attaching importance to agriculture and livestock raising. There is an indication the crisis will be a very serious one.
Reporter: What are the other signs of the coming of the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus?
Adnan Oktar: For example, the shedding of blood at the Kaaba, for instance. For instance the Iran-Iraq War, which happened in October 1980. That is a portent set out by our Prophet (saas). The occupation of Afghanistan in 1979. That is also a portent.
There are the hadith. These are all things described in the hadith. The severing of the waters of the Euphrates. That also happened. The Turkish daily Hürriyet said that the giant Euphrates had been frozen in its tracks. In other words, its waters were blocked. There were solar and lunar eclipses in the month of Ramadan in 1981.
There is the birth of a comet, which happened in 1986. The attack on and shedding of blood at the Kaaba in November 1979. The appearance of a sign in the Sun took place in 1996, this is the greatest ever solar explosion; the greatest in tis century. The hadith about a corruption of smoke and dust is a reference to the events of September 11. Widespread slaughter, a rise in terrorist activity in other words, is another of the Prophet’s (saas) hadith. There is the disappearance of an army, and the Iraqi army did vanish in the desert in 2003. The newspapers wrote about it. And it was covered all over Europe. Baghdad was devastated by flames, and that also happened in the 2003 Iraq War. Iraq is currently being reconstructed. The greening of the deserts is continuing now. Winds and hurricanes. There was Hurricane Katrina in 2005 and Hurricane Ike in 2008. There is increasing urbanization, tall buildings are being constructed and markets are drawing closer all over the world. There is the portent of people speaking through the end of a whip, in other words, this is a simile referring to the telephone and its cable. That is happening now. People hearing their own voices – recording them and playing them back. That is another of our prophet’s (saas) hadith. Some 300 similar hadith in this sense have all taken place. These are portents of the coming of both the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus.
Reporter: What impact will the coming of Jesus and the Mahdi have?
Adnan Oktar: There will be enormous joy. A huge explosion in the economy, art and science. There will be a huge leap forward in architecture and urbanization. It means humanity living in a physical and spiritual peace and joy. We call this the Golden Age. The Qur’an refers to the coming of the Prophet Jesus in verse 61 of Sura al-Zuhruf; “He [the Prophet Jesus] is a sign of the hour.” In other words, his coming is a sign showing proximity to Doomsday. In verse 55 of Sura al-‘Imran, Allah refers to the Prophet Jesus, saying that he will make who follow him [the Prophet Jesus] superior to deniers and atheists right up until Doomsday. That is a verse regarding his coming. In verse 159 of Sura an-Nisa, Allah says there is not one Jew or Christian who will not believe in him before they die. Everyone will believe, Allah says. There are many such verses. Allah says that the Prophet Jesus was not killed nor crucified. He says that twice in the Qur’an. Humanity will see a perfect human being, and will realize what a perfect human being is by looking at the Prophet Jesus. He will be someone whom everybody loves. Jews, Christians and Muslims will embrace him and welcome him with love. But at the start, the Mahdi will only be the leader of the Islamic world, someone who only they love. In the following stage, he will be someone beloved of Jews, Christians and Muslims, because Christians and Jews will have become Muslims. Just one faith will remain. The Prophet Jesus will call them all to Islam. And there will be but one faith, Islam, in the world. This is the world’s destiny. And that is the case with this economic crisis. They will be unable to stop it, despite all their efforts. This has happened as a miracle. And it will continue until the appearance of the Mahdi. It cannot be stopped, despite all their efforts. The social control mechanism will fail to function because of the severity of the moral collapse. That will only become possible in the time of the Mahdi. In other words, he will teach people love, peace, brotherhood, affection, mutual aid and not to be selfish and egotistical; and all mankind will accept that. That is going to be done first by the Mahdi and then by Jesus.
Reporter: Can we therefore conclude that Islam will rule the world in 7 years’ time?
Adnan Oktar: The Mahdi will be felt. The idea of the Mahdi will make itself felt. The Mahdi’s presence will be felt. That is the first phase. This itself is not something that will lead to the dominion of Islam. It is just one of the stages. But the presence of the Mahdi will be widely felt as a result. People will realize the presence of the Mahdi and his importance. But that is just the beginning. The Mahdi will be active for at least 20 years. He will work together with the Prophet Jesus. That work will last many years. No power on earth can stop the coming of the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus. No power apart from Allah. That is definitely destiny, an inevitable fact.
Reporter: If I understand correctly, you say that in the event that Turkey joins the EU it will also be the leader of the entire Islamic world. Do you think that other Islamic countries will accept Turkish leadership?
Adnan Oktar: They cannot survive, socially or materially, in any other way. They have no choice. Either they collapse, or else they accept the union. That is the only way out. There is no alternative, neither for them nor for humanity.
Reporter: But do you think that powerful Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia or others will permit Turkey to be a member of the EU at the same time?
Adnan Oktar: Membership of the EU will be a great blessing for the Islamic world. Europeans are excellent people in economic and social terms, they are good natured and they have a good artistic understanding and a good civilization understanding. Co-operation and union with them will contribute much to the world, and that unity will be very, very important. This is something that will in any case happen in the time of the Prophet Jesus, and something that needs to happen.
Reporter: Darwinism will be defeated when the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus appear. In 7 or 20 years. But in the light of your statements there is another organization responsible for evils in the world as a whole, and that is Freemasonry. Will the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus fight Freemasonry?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. The Masons will be totally vanquished in the face of the idea of the Mahdi and the power of the Prophet Jesus. Freemasonry is an idea that supports the Dajjal. It supports the Dajjal, the Antichrist. But they will be totally defeated. But as a result of that defeat they, too, will adopt Islamic moral values, the moral values of the Qur’an, and will draw close to the Prophet Jesus. They will rectify themselves and become decent human beings, in terms of ideas and ways of thinking, though they are already clean in mind and body. It is only their ideas that are wrong. Their ideas will be eliminated. Their false ideas will be eliminated. It will come as a great shock when they see the Prophet Jesus. They will be amazed. And they will see the miracles of the Prophet Jesus. They will experience the miracle of his return after 2000 years. This is one of the greatest possible events for the world. And it is a great shock. They will experience enormous joy and excitement. Everyone who is alive will see what I have said. This is promised in the Qur’an. It is also a fact promised in the Bible.
Reporter: Looking at the accusations you have made against the Masons, you have many times said that the Masons work under the influence of Satan. You have said that the Masons spread evil across the world and have also stated that they have links to the PKK [Kurdistan Workers’ Party]. You have also stated that the Masons have had a damaging impact on you personally, that they have caused you to be the victim of difficult situations at various times in your life. For example there has been a time that you were accused of being a mental patient. What can you tell us about that in general terms?
Adnan Oktar: Activities of that kind have been going on for hundreds of years. There is a struggle between believers and non-believers. This will continue from the time of the Prophet Adem right up to Doomsday. Non-believers are always organized. They carry out organized activities. They have brought that about through an organization like the Masons. Freemasonry goes back a very long way. It even existed in Ancient Egypt. It existed in the time of the Prophet Suleyman. It existed in even earlier times. It has been active ever since. For example, they mixed cocaine in with my food at the Security Department. I proved that forensically and their plot collapsed with the court ruling. I presented my forensic medicine report to the court and the court agreed that the cocaine had been administered with my food and drink at the Security Department. I was thus acquitted. I was held for 10 months among crazed mental patients who had committed murders before. This is of course something quite out of the ordinary. Abnormal states of affairs like that have continued all the time. They are still going on. They may also do so in the future, but anyone engaged in a struggle can encounter such things. This is normal. Masons describe in their own books how they have links to Satan. They say that Satan lights their path. They say he is a beacon on their path. The light of Satan. They talk about it very clearly. A ceremony of theirs in which an animal was sacrificed to Satan was broadcasted before, and all of Turkey saw it. They stage unbelievable ceremonies to make contact with Satan. And far from denying that connection they openly admit it.
Reporter: Does the fact that Ataturk, the founder of the Republic of Turkey, was a Mason concern you at all?
Adnan Oktar: On the contrary, Ataturk actually closed the Masonic lodges. And he did so with grave insults and a huge anger, and he put an end to Masonic activity at the time. And he is the only leader in the history of the Republic, and even in the history of the Ottoman Empire, to put a stop to Freemasonry. In that respect and all other respects, Ataturk was a flawless leader.
Reporter: Some Islamic scientists have also been members of Masonic lodges.
Adnan Oktar: That goes back to what I was saying before. That means it is people who receive their instructions from Masonic lodges, Darwinists and materialists who appear to be Muslims, who represent the source of terror. That means what I say is true. People of that kind generally receive backing from Masonic lodges. They give the impression they are Muslims. They may also describe themselves as Islamic scholars. The people around them imagine them to be normal Muslims. Whereas they are actually people who have undergone socialist, Darwinist, materialist and Masonic education and who engage in terror. No true Muslim would do that.
Reporter: You have incurred severe criticism regarding what you have said about the genocide of the Jews in the Second World War. I believe you said in your books, or some of them, that no such genocide ever happened.
Adnan Oktar: On the contrary. In actual fact, this is something that happened because a colleague of mine brought out such a book under my name. It is not a book of mine, and that has been established by the courts. I have also issued official notarized protests against the person concerned, telling him not to use my name in the book. I am in fact a devout individual who protects and cares best for Jews. The Jews are descended from the prophets, from the Prophet Ibrahim. And they really were oppressed by Hitler. They also suffered from communist violence. I have written books, writings and articles decrying all that, and am still doing so. It all stemmed from that past misunderstanding I have described. But the facts of the matter are these.
Reporter: Do you think there is a link between Zionism and National Socialism? Do you think there was collaboration between the two?
Adnan Oktar: Of course, atheist Zionism, atheist Zionists collaborated with National Socialists. They had mass slaughter inflicted on innocent Jews. Zionist thinking, atheist Zionist thinking in other words, is fiercely opposed to devout Jews. They do not accept devout Jews. They just have an understanding of a non-religious Judaism. That is why they collaborated with the Nazis to ruthlessly slaughter religious Jews. They worked hand in glove with Nazi officials. There is a great deal of historic data to that effect.
Reporter: But when we look at the camps in which the Jews were exterminated in the Second World War and the records from them, many non-Jews were also killed, people who had nothing to do with religion at all.
Adnan Oktar: Of course. Hitler was a dyed-in-the-wool Darwinist, a psychopath, totally unbalanced, and the Jews were by no means his only target. He massacred Christians and Muslims, too. He destroyed anything that confronted him. He did not target just one group of people. He slaughtered people everywhere in the countries he occupied.
Reporter: But you never mention the relations between National Socialism and Arab leaders in your books. For example, during the Second World War Huseyni, the mufti of Jerusalem, visited Hitler in Berlin and made a speech referring to collaborating with him on killing Jews.
Adnan Oktar: We are back to the same place again. He was also a typical Mason and a typical Darwinist. It shows that under the guise of Islam they can establish relations with such fascist and communist organizations and organize all kinds of evil with them. That is what we see. I do not want to get in to the details of Huseyni’s personality because I do not know that much about him personally, but we can tell the kind of people they are from what they say.
Reporter: Do you think peace can today be established between Israel and Palestine? And if there is such a possibility, what is the best solution?
Adnan Oktar: That will be with the coming of the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus.
Reporter: Do you think that suicide attacks are acceptable according to Islam?
Adnan Oktar: No matter who does it, it is a sin and murder to kill oneself. We are told in the Qur’an it is a crime punished with eternal hell. In addition, terror and killing aimed at the innocent, women and children and people that have nothing to do with it are actions strongly condemned and referred to as cruelty by the Qur’an. No Muslim would ever even visualize to such a thing. Muslims are full of love and compassion and affection. They are protective toward others. They are particularly careful when it comes to innocent children. This of course is not something that could ever be accepted. I take shelter from Satan to Allah, what Allah wants from us is to even forgive people who have committed murders, this is what Allah tells us even to forgive those who killed. This is what He says. But such actions of cruelty are out of the question according to the Qur’an. No matter who may espouse them, these are all violations of the Qur’an.
The Qur’an contains love, peace, brotherhood and the protection of others. Fear and a profound love of Allah. There can therefore be no terror or violence. People must be quite clear on that. They can see it quite clearly when they read the Qur’an. If anyone still holds that viewpoint, bring them to me, and I will convince them to see they are in the wrong.
Reporter: Some books published among the Islamic brotherhood, such as Sayyid Kutub, have been banned in Saudi Arabia. What do you think of Sayyid Kutub?
Adnan Oktar: I believe he is a well-intentioned Muslim. I have read a few of his books. I have not seen anything out of the ordinary in them. But not everything that someone says is definitely going to be right. If there are errors, we will tell people the truth in the light of the moral values of the Qur’an and the hadith of our Prophet (saas). We will tell people what is wrong. There is no blind belief in Islam. Things have to agree with the Qur’an and the hadith.
Reporter: Do you regard secularism as important?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. It is a system defended by Islam, which is essential within Islam. It is a perfect system that prevents dishonest people portraying themselves as religious.
Reporter: But many Islamic thinkers are opposed to the idea of secularism, and they espouse the idea that someone who does favor secularism is not a true Muslim.
Adnan Oktar: No. Almost all the Muslims in Turkey support the idea of secularism. That is good, and they all abide by Islam. Islam already exists side by side with secularism, which is a perfect system that does away with hypocrisy. No matter who says what, that is the truth of the matter, because secularism bestows freedom on peoples of all beliefs. However, some conceptions of secularism do directly target religion and represent a system intended to eliminate religion.
Reporter: We were talking about the conception of secularism. Looking at Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Egypt, do you think that their state structures and ways of life are compatible with Islam?
Adnan Oktar: Let me cite an instance from the Iranian constitution. Article 1 of the constitution says “This Constitution is valid until the coming of the Mahdi.” In the following period, it says that the words of the Mahdi will apply. The Mahdi will fully resolve all these issues in his time. A most perfect, humane, loving and secular conception of Islam that attaches importance to art and science will rule the whole world.
Reporter: But in some of the countries you cite people are banned from choosing their own religion.
Adnan Oktar: These things will all be resolved in the time of the Mahdi. That we are told in the hadith. They say that the Islamic world will be fragmented, that there will be sects and chaos, that Muslim blood will flow and that there will be great corruption and great events, but that the coming of the Mahdi will put an end to all that corruption. At that time, the Mahdi’s ideas will be fundamental in the Islamic world. A true Islam based on Qur’anic moral values will emerge.
Reporter: You have spoken of the benefits and advantages of secularism, saying people should be able to choose their beliefs. But looking at Saudi Arabia, a Muslim is not allowed to convert to Christianity. Do you criticize that ban in that respect?
Adnan Oktar: Our Prophet (saas) has made it quite clear that all these matters will be resolved in the time of the Mahdi. I repeat, when that time comes, when he appears, you will see that all these matters are put right. Indeed, one of our Prophet’s (saas) hadith relates that someone in Medina will say to the Mahdi, ”This person has destroyed our faith.” In other words, some people will oppose the Mahdi, saying he has destroyed the faith. But the Mahdi will actually restore it to its true form. But he will do away with their bigoted, erroneous beliefs and apply true Islam. That is why they will be amazed at his words, and there are many hadith that say they will oppose him. They will even accuse the Mahdi of departing from the Qur’an. Our Prophet (saas) says; “His task is very hard because in the beginning people will attack him in the name of godlessness, they will accuse him, in the name of the faith, in the name of departing from the Qur’an.” In other words, they will use the Qur’an to fight him. That is why the Prophet (saas) says the Mahdi’s job is a hard one. But all these difficulties will disappear within the next 10 years, at which time we can do another interview and you will admit that I was right, insha’Allah.
Reporter: What I was asking was whether a law in Saudi Arabia prohibiting someone from changing his religion was a correct law in your eyes.
Adnan Oktar: There is a verse about that in the Qur’an. I take shelter in Allah from the satan. It says “There is no compulsion in the faith.” That explains it all. Religion cannot be imposed. If you oblige a person to be insincere, he will be a hypocrite. That is totally wrong. People are free to choose their own religion and belief in Islam. Anyone doing anything else is doing wrong.
Reporter: Shortly before in this interview you said that a book saying that the Jewish holocaust never happened was not written by you. There are 300 books published under the name of Harun Yahya. Did you write them all?
Adnan Oktar: I have a group of some 30 advisors and researchers. They include assistant professors, lecturers and scientists. They bring me ready to use information, ready to use photography, I do the interpreting and make the connections between them. I then send them to the proof-reader and a book emerges. I do not concern myself with any other matters. I also take an interest in the book covers. And I choose the internal illustrations. People have also published books using my name all over the world. They have been warned also. Such things happen, and I issue the appropriate warnings.
Reporter: It has also been rumored that former Turkish Prime Minister Erbakan was also involved in books being published under the name of Harun Yahya. What do you think of that?
Adnan Oktar: That was something imputed to him by his admirers. I also heard such reports. But everyone learned the truth of the matter in due course. Only a very small minority ever believed it in the first place, and Erbakan always denied it. It was an interesting idea, but everyone eventually learned the truth. Let me also say how much I like Erbakan.
Reporter: But he has clearly read your books and shares your views, because he referred to your books and the subjects you discussed in them in an interview he gave last year. He expressed parallel views to your own regarding the Masons or Darwinism.
Adnan Oktar: He recommends my books to everyone. Erbakan is very fond of me. He also likes my books. He recommends them to everyone.
Reporter: Your books have been translated into many foreign languages. Including English. They are published in Britain and America. Where do you have most readers?
Adnan Oktar: In America. Britain second and then other European countries. I seem to remember France coming third.
Reporter: A recent survey held by a media organization in the USA asked who people thought the most important intellectual or person was. Fethullah Gülen topped that poll. That shows that there is another Muslim thinker who is just as influential as you in America.
Adnan Oktar: Excellent, if that is the case. It is a great blessing. Insha’Allah the number will keep growing.
Reporter: Again, there are rumored to be some tensions between you and Fetullah Gülen. Is that true?
Adnan Oktar: No. I have a great love and respect for Fetullah Hodja. I like his moral values and his personality. Such a thing is impossible. I hope he also likes me. Rational people tend to like one another.
Reporter: They say that you and Fetullah Gülen have been influenced by some creationist thinkers in the U.S.
Adnan Oktar: Creationist thinkers are influenced by me. I am currently writing the books that set out creationist thought in the most perfect, striking and effective manner and I wrote until now. My Atlas of Creation came like a bombshell. There were no such activities anywhere in the world before that. The ideas of American creationists were not that prominent in either America or Europe. They were not regarded as that important. They were regarded as a weak and powerless movement, but everything changed in the wake of my books. They acted like an earthquake. That is how the press put it. The press even said they had the effect of an atom bomb. One can see thousands of such reports in the foreign press. These thousand of newspaper articles all contain references to shock and major impacts. Let me quote some headlines from the European media for you. One says, “Harun Yahya has a valuable power to create an electric shock effect.” Another newspaper in Britain says, “Watch out, creationist progression will continue.” Another report said: “The time has come for us all to give up. We have been defeated by Harun Yahya.” Yet another evolutionist report says, “Harun Yahya has defeated Darwinism.” Le Monde said, “Creationism is increasing its influence in Europe.”There are thousands of similar newspaper headings. The French daily Le Point carried a headline reading, “Save Darwinism.” France’s La Liberation says, “A single move has led to total panic.” There have been thousands of such reports. Nobody else in the Islamic world has to date engaged in a struggle against Darwinism except me. Those who have, have taken extracts from my books and published very small works. But apart from that, my books are the only ones in the world to have a powerful, even destructive impact. This is the first time there has been such a thing in 150 years. That is why there is such a panic.
Reporter: In that connection, creationist thinkers in the U.S. have been greatly influenced by your publications and ideas. Does this mean that you share the views of supporters of creationist ideas in America?
Adnan Oktar: There are fundamental differences in their account, of course. We put the creation of the world back billions of years, for example. We put it back to 15 billion years ago. As you know, that idea does not exist in Christian thought. They put the age of the world at 6,000 years. But our belief is different. That is one basic difference. Because if you say the world is only 6,000 years old, your cause is lost before you even start. Therefore, our way of explaining is both rational and correct and also is based on the Qur’an and it consists of totally convincing, crashing facts.
Reporter: Some Islamic thinkers have criticized your views. In particular, what you say about the relation between Allah and creation has been described as pantheist. And this was criticized. Because in the course of those debates you have suggested that Allah and the world are one whole. That has been criticized. What do you think in this respect?
Adnan Oktar: They criticize it because they have failed to completely understand it. But they understand it when I describe it clearly. I have explained the matter for those who object. They realized I was speaking the truth. If anyone still objects I can set it out again, because it is the irrefutable truth. These are evident truths compatible with the Qur’an, the hadith, reason and science. They say that Allah is somewhere in the sky. That is why we look upward and open our hands to the sky, because Allah is in the sky, they say. But when people anywhere in space open their hands out they are opening them in all directions, and that means that Allah is everywhere. They fail to understand that. But when I describe it in full, they say, “Yes, you are actually right.”
Reporter: What you say about perception, your theory about perception reveals that we have direct communicate, not of the originals of objects, but of their images. We experience, not reality, but an image thereof. But in your opinion is this way of thinking not materialist? Because are we thus not reducing everything to a physical effect in the brain or the eye?
Adnan Oktar: It is the truth. It is a clear truth that both atheists and believers must accept. Nobody can deny it. This is a fact that all the scientists unanimously agree on. In addition, it is not a materialist view, but rather one that does away with materialism. It is the idea that Lenin was most worried about. Lenin did want people even to think about it or research or debate on it. It is what Marxists are most worried about. It is the subject that materialism is most hesitant over, and it is a fact. No matter how much they try to avoid the truth, it is still an evident reality that everyone will agree on.
Reporter: It is a bit philosophical, but what you have just said is related to the natural sciences. Looking at materialists’ ideas and arguments, they seek to tell us about the essence of matter. On the other hand, non-materialist modes of thought stress and seek to explain under what conditions that matter came into being.
Adnan Oktar: If materialists fully grasped the truth of matter I am describing, that the reality of everything is an image in the brain and were convinced that what they see is in their brains, then it would be impossible for them to be materialists. They would be paralyzed by fear. They would be rooted to the spot. They would be speechless with fear. They would 100% feel themselves obliged to believe in Allah. They are only speaking so freely now because they have failed to understand. This is a major truth that will really stun them. They will no alternative but to believe in Allah. In other words, they would have to believe in Allah if they understood this truth. But they do not understand it.
Reporter: There is one point I do not understand. What does my perceiving you as an image have to do with the existence of Allah? I am unable to make that connection.
Adnan Oktar: For example, do you think this glass in my hand was created by chance, or was there an artist behind it? You will certainly say there was an artist. You will say that definitely human beings made it. But human beings do not make it in your brain, Allah does. You see me and all this technical equipment or that service cart over there. If anyone asks you will say that these were definitely manufactured by someone. But they are being shown to you by Allah In your brain. No factory can have these things shown you in your brain. No company, no research group or scientist can form that image in your brain. A power creates this image in your brain. We call the Power Who creates this is your brain Allah. I use guarded language when I explain this in order not to panic people. If I explain it at length in a bald language someone hearing me may be seized by a terrible panic, so I use very careful language and explain it slowly in a manner people can understand. Otherwise, it will be impossible for anyone not to believe in Allah in the face of this reality. Whilst a person is sane, there is no alternative other than believing in Allah. For example, they make my watch in a factory; many engineers and technicians work hard to do so. There are two watches, the material one and the one in my brain. I am unable to have direct experience of the material one. There is a power that shows it to me. For me, the real watch is the one on my brain, not the one outside made in the factory. In other words, there is one real watch, the one I see in my brain, but that is not made in a factory. The Power that makes it is Allah. We never have direct experience of the watch made in the factory. We experience the watch we see in our brains. That is the thing we refer to as the watch, the real watch. That is an evident fact, one that nobody can deny. That is the reality of this world. Materialists are terrified by it, but it is a reality they can never escape. No matter how much they may deny it, they are still denying it in an image in their brains. None can escape that reality.
Reporter: If I cannot have direct contact with the material watch or glass, how can I know they exist at all?
Adnan Oktar: Allah knows. They exist in His sight. Allah knows, even if we cannot see them.
Reporter: But in offering this account you are first acting from a materialist approach. You embrace a materialist approach in describing how we perceive reality. When you say that it is impossible to make direct contact with matter you depart from that materialist perspective and base things on the existence of Allah.
Adnan Oktar: There is nothing materialist here at all. That would be a false impression. Because if someone sees the electric current in his brain in that manner, there is nothing in that to be explained in terms of materialism. It is completely metaphysical and extraordinary and a complete miracle. I explain this in a way that people will completely understand, but it may hurt them or be unbearable to them. Their souls might fail to stand this reality. I do not want them to suffer a lot, so I try to explain the concepts very gently so they will understand bit by bit. This is a clear fact that nobody can deny. The system constructed by Allah is funded on that, as is paradise. Hell is also constructed on that system, and nobody can ever step outside it. Nobody has ever been able to step outside it to date. No created entity can step outside it, and only Allah knows the reality of matter.
Reporter: Materialists offer the same explanation of perception. You make the same explanations in your books. According to materialists, our perception of reality begins with perceiving colors and we perceive reality as an image in our brains. The only difference is that materialists do not link this to the existence of Allah, but otherwise your accounts of the concept of perception are identical.
Adnan Oktar: When materialists describe something, they imagine they are explaining it to someone in front of them, they tell it to an image in their brains, and Allah creates that image for them. Allah creates all materialists’ accounts for them. Allah creates everything they say for them. But they are unaware of that. That is the system Allah has created, whether they want it or not. When Darwin told someone something, he told it to an image in his brain. It is impossible to step outside that. I mean he cannot get in contact with the existence of that entity outside his brain. When he boarded that ship and went off to do his research, he saw an image of that ship in his brain. He could never have direct experience of the ship itself. When I pick up this glass, I perceive a sense of touch and vision in my brain. It is in my brain, and I am experiencing taste in my brain, in the form of an electrical impulse. I cannot know what exists on the outside, but I can only experience these sensations. This is a great miracle.
People such as Darwin, Marx and Lenin were specially created to be opposed by the Mahdi and the Prophet Jesus. Pharaoh was created to be opposed by the Prophet Musa. Nemrut was created to be opposed by the Prophet Ibrahim. Such people are always created together with their exact opposites. The prophets and the people alongside them, people who disseminate Islam, are created together with their exact opposites. They are created in the same period. They are created in the same time dimension and are entities created to be struggled against. Shaytan is also an entity created to strive against human beings. When people defeat Shaytan and his ideas they thus draw close to Allah.
Reporter: To speak within a non-materialistic framework, everything we experience in the brain is a phenomenon taking place between our mind and brain. This may be a bit metaphysical, but when we look at the metaphysics of Aristotle, he says we perceive the objects around us in our minds. He says that reality can be grasped with the mind, not with senses such as touch or smell. What do you think about that?
Adnan Oktar: Many philosophers in the past set their ideas out on the subject, but the most accurate, the truest and the clearest, is my account. No scientist or rational person can deny it. It cannot be denied, because anyone doing so would have to produce some evidence. Anyone who can see, can see that this is the truth.
Reporter: Many of your books can be downloaded over the internet for free and people can access them over the net. Some of your books are also available from book shops. But there is something that people are still curious about. Where does the money to print and translate these books come from, and how is it financed?
Adnan Oktar: 16 million of my books have been sold this year. That is heading for 20 million now, though those are the latest figures I have. But I have not received the fourth quarter figures yet. I estimate it has approached 20 million. I receive no royalties from these books. I take no profits from them. The publishers make a considerable profit, but of course they have to set funds aside for marketing. If you factor in the royalties and profits I do not take, that is a considerable sum. The publishers use that to distribute the book free of charge as a promotion. That is perfectly normal. This is something that all companies and publishing houses do. And this is all our publishing house does.
Reporter: I have asked many questions I wanted to. I have asked them under various main headings. Looking at your books, in addition to religious matters, religious matters of concern to Europe, subjects such as Freemasonry and the Jewish Holocaust are also under discussion. I have asked my questions about those main areas and am pleased with the interview. Thank you very much.
Adnan Oktar: Thank you.
Reporter: I would like to ask one last question. Do you want Muslim countries and everyone to accept what you say in your books and articles and discussion panels? Does everyone agree at present?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. It is amazing. Everyone, all the sects and different congregations, people of all beliefs, agree with what I say. That is something unique to my books. No other books have that feature. It is an excellent feature of Harun Yahya’s books.
Reporter: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking to you.
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