MARC KAUFMAN: What I would be very interested to hearing that how the issue of evolution first came up for you and how and why became such an important part of your life?
ADNAN OKTAR:Given the very explicit, solid evidence, Allah’s existence, creation is evident. This being the case, attempting to deceive all humanity, the world in general, claiming that the universe came into existence by chance is an extensive hoax. I realized the existence of a great plot hatched against the world. Even during the elementary school years I did not believe in evolution, the theory of evolution. During the college years I was more informed about it. However, the extensive research I made during the university years led me to see the existence of a very comprehensive conspiracy; a masonic plot was imposed upon the people in the world. There were 250 million fossils which we did not know about; we became aware of their existence. These fossils prove creation whereas not a single fossil exists that validates evolution. Not a single one. I examined the structure of proteins; their coming into existence by chance is impossible. So I decided to make people aware of this plot and proclaim it by my works, books and articles.
MARC KAUFMAN: I believe many people have similar ideas about evolution and creation but they don’t necessarily get involved at this kind of, with this kind of intensity for such a long time. So I am interested in what is it about at this subject that he finds very important to talk about and to teach about?
ADNAN OKTAR: The scope of the deception highly disturbed me. That is, devising such a world-wide dictatorship, dismissing people who advocate creation from schools. And the direst thing is that it is a theory that led the bloodshed of 350 million people. A theory that caused the World Wars I and II and led the way to communism, fascism and all deviant ideologies and satanism. A theory that left more than 1 billion cripple people behind due to wars it caused. A theory which is the root of anarchy and terror. That is, the basis and the so-called scientific ground of communist ideology, Leninist and Stalinist mentality. That is why I considered it as a great threat and felt the necessity to eliminate it with all my might and sources. It is impossible for a Muslim who sees the establishment of such a system, which we call “the system of the anti-christ”, to remain silent.
MARC KAUFMAN: How would he describe his own effect on the Turkish population in terms of evolution and creation?
ADNAN OKTAR: The number of my books downloaded from Internet is very high. More than 80 million books are downloaded in one year. Especially in Turkey the number of the downloaded books are very high. Today, 95 percent of the Turkish people do not believe in Darwinism. Our friends have organized conferences in almost every city of the country. Furthermore we provided information on the Internet continuously. We explained the subjects by means of newspaper announcements. We had free book campaigns and enlightened our nation very well. We also provided comprehensive information to our people by TV and radio programs. Today the threat of Darwinism and materialism is eliminated in Turkey and has irreversibly vanished.
MARC KAUFMAN: And I know that there are other people who have been talking about this, other Turkish people, leaders and people who have written on this subject. Does he believe that they also would have had an influence or have they been misguided in some way?
ADNAN OKTAR: On the contrary we have seen that in Turkey, they have even had some devout Islamic scholars and professors undergo Darwinist and materialist training and kept them as a cell ready for action. We have seen that they have put these devout-seeming scholars in the guise of Islamic scholars into action to make the Turkish people Darwinists. Had we not been around, I believe that they would rapidly spread Darwinism throughout the Islamic world and the world in general. Under severe resistance, under scientific pressure they relented and collapsed.
ADNAN OKTAR: We met many conspiracies. One of them is the story that animals had undergone evolution but human beings had not. This was, for instance, also an insidious plot which we ruined. That is, they developed a reasoning which suggested that at least we should accept the evolution of animals. Very irrational. A very horrible explanation but we have eliminated it with scientific evidence and comprehensive explanations.
MARC KAUFMAN: As he knows there are many people in United States who are involved in this issue, in, have written a great deal about creation and evolution. Have they played a role in his thinking, have they been of use to him in some ways?
ADNAN OKTAR: There is Creation Research Institute. Now and again we correspond with them and receive information from them. But of course they have a structure that have lost from the very first beginning for they refuse to admit that the world is billions of years old and fossils are millions of years old. In this case they are defeated from the very beginning. That is, this is a dire error on their behalf which we eliminated by accurate scientific evidence and arguments based on paleontology, biology and other disciplines.
MARC KAUFMAN: As I have looked at some of the material they have and some of the materials that is here too there are similarities in terms of some of the points made, some of the issues that are raised. Is there that kind of a correspondence, and that kind of cooperation between the groups where you know if they come up with some interesting important scientific information that they will share it and vice versa?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course. As far as I know our friends are still in touch.
MARC KAUFMAN: There are a number of people that I have spoken to who worry that the issue of evolution here in Turkey and the fact that so many people no longer accept the evolution will have an effect on the teaching of science in a general way and that Turkey which has been famous for some of its science will begin to be less so because people will be concerned that they should not get involved in some scientific fields. So many thoughts about these things that other people and other professors and so on are saying.
ADNAN OKTAR: In any case science is always the basis in proving the falsehood of Darwinism. We also need science in comprehending the Qur’an’s realities, seeing the manifestations of Allah’s existence and the beauties He created. Science is obligatory according to the Qur’an; that is, a Muslim and science are inseparable. Religion and science are inseparable. In other words, in the absence of religion science does not exist and religion does not exist in the absence of science. Science is a requirement stipulated in the Qur'an. The Qur’an commands this obligation to us. We learn moral perfection from the Qur’an. We also learn Allah’s artistry by way of science.
MARC KAUFMAN: At this point is he satisfied with the position of the current government in terms of teaching evolution and creation in school or are there things that he believes that they should do differently?
ADNAN OKTAR: The government almost never interferes in this subject. Yet the main power against us is the alleged Ergenekon Organization, which is supported by freemasonry. As a result of the provocations and organization carried out by the alleged Ergenekon Organization, many lawsuits were brought against us. Before that they hatched a cocaine plot against me. While I was kept in custody in police station, they conspired against me by mixing cocaine into my food and drinks. However the Forensic Medicine uncovered this plot and I was acquitted based on the evidence Forensic Medicine provided. Their aim was to remove the influence I had on society. Besides, for 10 months I was held in a mental institution where I was chained from my foot. I find this, again, very obscure, since the Military Hospital annulled this report. The hospital in question issued a report confirming my mental and physical well-being. But it was issued years later. So the press continuously manipulated this situation. Their strategy was to stress that as an insane person, my works were not worth reading. I find this very dark. Besides, the Forensic Medicine Supreme Board also annulled this report. I encountered hundreds of similar plots. Many lawsuits were brought with the charge of being a crime organization and I was acquitted from them all. They filed a claim again about being a crime organization and I was acquitted again. They again entered similar lawsuits against me. That is, they pursue the kind of policy that disallows me to breathe. For instance they carried out nine armed attacks against me. That is to say, being an anti-Darwinist is not so easy in Turkey.
MARC KAUFMAN: If I am not mistaken from the articles that I read a judge had issued a conviction was at last year I believe. I believe there is a appeal that is pending right now. Does he have any idea when that will be answered or will be the appeal will be responded to and if they uphold the conviction what happens then, does he have any other avenues that he can pursue?
ADNAN OKTAR: The attorney of the other party gave an interview to the New Humanist magazine this month, stating that the court would conclude the case and impose a penalty on me. I have no information regarding it. But this lady, the attorney Rezzan Aydınoğlu, made such a claim. For ten years now, she has also been the attorney of Hurriyet daily and also the attorney of the noted journalist and author, Fatih Altaylı, or, I think he is only journalist, he has not authored a book. She is also Fatih Altaylı’s attorney. The alleged Ergenekon Organization sent various letters signed in my name. These were libelous in nature and the person in question filed a complaint about me. He informed against me of being [the leader of] a crime organization. In the court I proved that it was not me who sent the letters. Despite this they sued me based on such evidence. The prosecution office notified the Court about the invalidity of the testimonies since interrogations were taken in the absence of an attorney, under police duress. Secondly, he stated to the Court that the same Court previously acquitted me and my friends from the same case and file based on the same evidence and thus the Court should also acquit us this time. Third, he said that the file in question consists of no evidence against these people. Yet despite this the Court sentenced us for 2 years of imprisonment and added another year. This made a total of 3 years. I do not know why the Court added this 1 year. The court made no declaration regarding it and simply added another 1 year. For the time being the Supreme Court may approve or disapprove this case, I don’t know. Yet once it is approved, there is no alternative other than prison.
MARC KAUFMAN: What is he feeling in his heart will he, does he think that even is he preparing for, to have to go to jail and if so what are his thoughts about that, is this a time that he can use productively to write and to think and to do things or is this just an attempt in his mind to break him and stop him from doing what he’s doing?
ADNAN OKTAR: I was previously imprisoned for 10 months, and then for another 10 months. But these were not penalties; I was acquitted. I was held in mental institution among 300 mental patients for 10 months. During this time the patients murdered 7 other patients. It was an utterly savage environment; very horrible, an environment where such violence could be seen. That is why I consider prison as a hotel insha’Allah. I am accustomed to prisons insha’Allah.
ADNAN OKTAR: In the mental institution all the mental patients were wandering around naked. Fleas were everywhere and a horrible smell permeated the air. There were the outcries of the insane. It was a disgusting and horrible environment that I can not explain due to my courtesy. I was held there for 10 months. When physicians came, they were fainting. They were unable to check the patients, they were leaving immediately.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. Does he want to tell the details or no? ... Okay. No need.
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes. The details. For instance some of the mental patients were dying and since 6-7 of them were lying together, their bodies remained there for days. They were discovered only after they started to rot. It was such a horrible environment. This is one of the details I can give.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I was told that the founder of modern Turkey Kemal Ataturk had, he was a big advocate of science and it was suggested to me that he also had written in a positive way about evolution. If this is his understanding, if that is the case, what is his view of that?
ADNAN OKTAR: Ataturk was a very devout person. He was known in a wrong way. He believes in the Existence and Oneness of Allah, and Ataturk has very comprehensive statements on this. For instance he has had the Elmali [Hamdi Yazir] Commentary of the Qur’an prepared. He has had the Qur’an commentary prepared. He has had the Works of Bukhari (Sahih Bukhari), I mean the reliable hadith book translated. Ataturk was a man who performed his prayers. And he was a person with strong belief in Allah. He was a person who read the Qur’an almost every night. He also carried a copy of the Qur’an with him. There are hundreds of evidences to prove these points, but not a single one to state that he was a materialist, a Darwinist.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I want to go just back to one of the questions I’ve asked before because perhaps I was not clear in what I was trying to ask. The Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Science, they organize the curriculum for teaching biology and other kinds of sciences and also the religion and morals class. And when I asked the question about is the government doing all that it should be doing, that’s what I had in mind. Are they making a proper curriculum to teach to the students when it comes to the question of evolution and creation?
ADNAN OKTAR: Let me give you an example and then you can establish the necessary connections from that point on. There is a famous writer named Taha Akyol, a worldwide recognized writer, working for the Hurriyet daily. We had filed a court case about that person. We had won the case with the verdicts of four separate courts and that verdict was approved by the Supreme Court of Appeals. However Taha Akyol visited the Minister of Justice Cemil Cicek and this case was overruled within a week. It was overruled in the Supreme Court of Appeals just after a week. I mean that is an incident that we never come across normally. That is to say, in such incidents, it takes at least a year’s waiting and such verdicts are almost never overruled normally. However he had this verdict overruled within a week after having met the Minister, after having met Cemil Cicek. Also Taha Akyol is very close to Aydın Doğan, I mean they are very close friends. And Cemil Cicek is very close to Taha Akyol. I mean they have worked as lawyers in the same office for years and they have complete devotion for each other. They have direct influence on each other. We were given the imprisonment verdict while Cemil Cicek was the Minister and these were the events that happened while he was on duty. I mean, of course, I am not claiming that Cemil Cicek was the one who has had this done, but I am just telling you these to prevent the false claiming that we are being protected and that we are being watched out. Moreover even the judges who gave the verdict to imprison us were assigned by Cemil Cicek, there were one lady and one gentleman judge assigned to our case and Cemil Cicek had them assigned and thus we had lost a case which we actually won in the time of Cemil Cicek. I mean it was overruled by the Supreme Court of Appeals. Consequently there is no such support that we receive from the government. The government makes no distinction between a Darwinist and an anti-Darwinist. That is not what is going on, I mean the government has a completely impartial approach and that is normal because we are living in a laic system. But our being protected and watched out by the government is not true at all. I mean there is no such thing. That is all I wanted to say but of course I am not saying that it was Cemil Cicek who had those done. However such events happened during his time.
ADNAN OKTAR: But maybe I can give another proof for you to understand this better. In the court case in which I was given an imprisonment penalty, this case file actually was subjected to the statute of limitations and the case was thus closed. This verdict was overruled during the time of Cemil Cicek and the case file was reopened. That is to say, the case which was actually subjected to statute of limitations was overruled and thus restarted. Aydın Dogan’s newspaper had announced this to the public two days before this actually happened with the heading “Adnan Hodja is finally burnt out”. That is to claim that I am burnt, that I would burn out and be imprisoned. Two days before, I mean the statute of limitations verdict was just overruled but the result was not yet definite, even though the result was not yet certain, I mean I was supposed to be on trial first, they published news stating that I was burnt and destroyed two days in advance. And it happened just like they have claimed it would be, 2 days later and we learned that the verdict was reversed. Then these stages took place, 1 year was added to my 2 years of imprisonment. It was made 3 years, it is in the appellate review at the moment but the fact that this was known to Aydın Dogan two days before it happened and that such news were published by Aydın Dogan was highly strange. I mean where does he know that I will be burnt out and that I was done with. Where does he know that I will be imprisoned for instance, that is really a strange point. That is also a baffling information. I have said this before. Taha Akyol is Aydın Dogan’s closest man and Taha Akyol is also the closest man of the Minister Cemil Cicek. I mean when you put all those together we of course feel worried rightfully. But I consider the courts free of these. Of course I do believe that they have duly performed their functions. That is to say, I don’t believe that they were under any influence. I don’t believe that this happened as a result of compulsion. But that is also information and it is beneficial for it to be known.
ADNAN OKTAR: A person on duty in the Supreme Court of Appeals had told us that he had received a telephone call from Cemil Cicek. But I can’t tell you what the concept of this call was. If I can get permission from that person only then I can lay those down as well.
ADNAN OKTAR: I mean there is nothing like being protected or being watched out for, that is what I am trying to state.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. If the appeal is turned down and he goes to jail, what is his view? Will this hurt his cause or will this potentially help his cause because he would be seen as a martyr of some sort?
ADNAN OKTAR: Right, let me talk about the Prophet Joseph (pbuh) who is referred to in the Christian belief as well as in Muslim belief and also in Jewish belief. As you know Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was put in false imprisonment and had stayed in prison for seven years and when he finally got out he had become the Sultan of Egypt and he had become a worldwide leader and had lived a perfect life. A Muslim is hand in hand with prison, I mean when I started this cause, when I started this struggle, I did so by accepting imprisonment, becoming a martyr, being wounded, by undertaking the risk of being subjected to all kinds of slander and oppression. Besides anyone who cannot undertake these, should not enter into such a struggle.
MARC KAUFMAN: But how does he think that people will respond if he is sentenced and has to go to jail?
ADNAN OKTAR: They would see me as a hero. I mean this is an act of heroism after all, it is highly esteemed. To be put in jail for the sake of Allah is a highly relished thing.
ADNAN OKTAR: For instance my mentor [Bediuzzaman] Said Nursi had stayed in prison for 30 years. Now he is the most beloved religious intellectual.
ADNAN OKTAR: And that is the reason, the most important reason why he is this much loved.
MARC KAUFMAN: I would like to go back just one more time to the question of the curriculum in the schools. Does he believe, does he think that what he has been saying about evolution and creation has changed the way that these subjects are taught in schools in Turkey?
ADNAN OKTAR: I mean it is still carried out on the same line at the moment. That is to say Darwinism is being defended widely while Creationism is only mentioned with a sentence or in two lines and it is taught only in the form of saying ‘there are people who say these about creation’. I mean the old system is still practised at the moment, as it was back then.
MARC KAUFMAN: It’s interesting because some of the professors that I spoke to said that now evolution and Darwinism is not taught, hardly at all. But creation is. So I don’t know what the truth is, where the truth is, you know, people see it very differently.
ADNAN OKTAR: No. People are now embarrassed to defend Darwinism because it has clearly been proved that it is a lie, a fake theory. The teachers are avoiding to get in eye contact with the students, they get embarrassed. There is nothing to be explained, I mean even if they do, students embarrass them, show them the proofs, show them the fossils. They show the structure of the proteins and there is nothing left to do for the teachers. If this wasn’t true, the opposite would be happening. But since they are completely crashed at the moment, they don’t have the power to do anything else. However they did try to do something within the education system, within the National Education but at the moment there is nothing left that could be done for them.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I’d like to speak a little bit about the Atlas of Creation. I know that it has made a big splash when it came out. It was 2006. I’d be interested in particular for Muslims in the US. How have they responded to this book? Is it popular in the US? Are there a lot of requests for it?
ADNAN OKTAR: After the Atlas has been released the courage and determination of the Muslims took root in the complete meaning of the word. They are in an active attack at this moment. Also the self confidence of the Christians completely settled. The self confidence of the Jews settled completely as well. An attack had been developed on wide scale all over the world in three religions and it is very clearly seen that religion will prevail the world in this century. This fact has been stated in the hadith as well. This is the era of the arrival of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh). Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) has arrived and according to our belief, there are only 15-20 years left for the arrival of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will come in his original clothes with his long hair, that beautiful face, small nose and gray eyes. He has broad shoulders, athletic structure. We will be able to see that beautiful human being insha’Allah. After 2000 years Almighty Allah will put him back in space and time and the world will be facing an immense miracle.
ADNAN OKTAR: He will be in his original clothes. He will have his two piece yellow clothes on. He will have a thong-like shoes, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will come in his original clothes that he wore 2000 years ago.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. Again about the Atlas of Creation; how many copies have been published, in how many languages?
ADNAN OKTAR : My books in general are printed out in 60, more than 60 foreign languages but I believe Atlas is published in 10 foreign languages. That is what it should be I guess, English, French, German, Russian, Arabic and there are various other languages.
OKTAR BABUNA: I have the complete list shall I read it?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes.
OKTAR BABUNA: Turkish, English French, German, Italian, Russian and also Arabic, Japanese, Chinese, Urdu, Spanish, Hindi, Indonesian, Bosnian. Some of these, the second part of the list is on the internet, the other ones have also been published in hard copies.
ADNAN OKTAR: I guess it is printed 100.000 copies at least every three months.
MARC KAUFMAN: 100.000 copies published every three months? I was looking through an English language version. And one of the things that struck me was that many of the examples came from US or from Canada. If he could explain a little bit to me how that came to be. I mean you know there are a lot of examples all around the world. Was there a particular reason why those were emphasized, the fossils from America and Canada in particular?
ADNAN OKTAR: Generally it comes from every country in the world. I think there are more coming from America, I mean they might be able to reach the fossils more easily. That is to say, it goes in direct proportion with the wealth of the fossil beds and with the amplitude of the excavations being held there.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I guess the other underlying question is; were there some of the groups that you have worked with in the US, some of the creation groups? Did they help to provide some of the images and some of the information that is in that book?
ADNAN OKTAR: Not for the pictures but they have helped about some information. But the pictures are all original, I mean, most of them are pictures that we ourselves have taken.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. What was his purpose, his idea in putting together this book? You know this is a very major effort, must have taken a great deal of time and energy, what was his idea in doing that?
ADNAN OKTAR: To save the humanity from this great scourge. To save the humanity from this great scourge that has caused the death of 350 millions of people and that has caused more than 1 billion people be injured. To save the humanity from this scourge that caused love to be taken out from the hearts of people and thus caused their unhappiness.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I’m writing a book right now. I also know it’s very hard and time consuming. Curious as a fellow author, how long it took to put together that particular effort together?
ADNAN OKTAR: You will be surprised but only in 3 months.
MARC KAUFMAN: Three months? He works faster than me. In the US the creation, the people who support creationism or intelligent design, they have supporters, but not so many. Here in Turkey his message seems to have resigned much more. You know that many more people have responded. What’s his thinking is to why? What’s the difference between what’s happening in US and what’s happening here in Turkey?
ADNAN OKTAR: Turkey is a faithful nation. Turkey is the place in which Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) will arrive. For that reason it is understood that this nation had been specifically created as one very beneficial, altruistic nation with good morals, deep wisdom.
MARC KAUFMAN: Does he think also that in America the creationists are presenting their message improperly? Or in some ways not? Why is it being less successful there?
ADNAN OKTAR: The reason why they failed is that they are not scientific, I mean they do not have a scientific approach. They do not accept the millions of years, billions of years for the creation of the world. As you know in Christian belief, the creation of the world took 7 days. They say it took 6 days but the seventh was the day Allah had rested. (Allah is beyond that.) In the view of such circumstances they estimate that the world is 6000 years old and that gives an end to the scientific aspect of their claims from the outset.
MARC KAUFMAN: What about the people who were involved in the intelligent design movement? Because it’s similar but I think, they do not argue that the Earth is only 6 thousand years old, They say it is millions and billions also.
ADNAN OKTAR: People defending the intelligent design theory have a weak belief in Allah. I mean in fact it is not clear in what they believe. However people believing in Allah should be able to say it out openly and they need to be sincere. They say that a power has created, an intelligent being had created. But we do not know Who they say. This is very irrational. The name of this Power is Allah and they need to say it out openly. Consequently they can’t be successful because of their insincerity.
ADNAN OKTAR: Let me give you some additional information about our trial. Your following up that subject might be good as well. In the court case file that I had been tried, the court had not declared from which article of law we were being tried until the last moment of the last hearing. They only stated it in the last hearing. In the last hearing they should have given us time for the additional defense, we needed to make preparations for defense, since they declared that we were tried from a new article of law. They didn’t give that right to us. Our attorneys resigned in the face of this. New attorneys should have been assigned in that stance. They didn’t assign new attorneys either. Moreover we have tried to explain with 11 forensic medicine reports that we have been tortured and one of the people who had tortured us was Adil Serdar Saçan. This person is at the moment being tried with the allegation of being a member of the alleged Ergenekon Organization. Even though it had been proved with reports from the forensic medicine department and even though related people are being tried for 2000 years of imprisonment as a result of this. We have presented an offer to the court. We said “accept this as a preliminary issue and suspend the court. When this case about the preliminary issue is concluded, if it certifies that we have been tortured, this case file would be abated”, and that is how it should have been according to the laws. The court didn’t accept this. All those are reasons for annulment according to the decisions of the Supreme Court of Appeals penalty commission, according to the practice of the Supreme Court of Appeals. That is to say, there are a lot of reasons for annulment in regard to our court case file. And this is one of the verdicts of the Supreme Court of Appeals’ General Penalty Commission. I mean I have listed only a few of the reasons for annulment. One reason is the fact that we were not given the means for an additional defense; the fact that we were not told on which article we were being tried until the last moment; the fact that preliminary case was not accepted even though there are forensic medicine reports about 11 people.
ADNAN OKTAR: There are various reasons for annulment regarding these and many others in compliance with the verdicts of the Supreme Court of Appeals’ General Penalty Commission. For that reason we are expecting the Supreme Court of Appeals to reverse the verdict in our case file. But of course the final decision is the High Court’s. We do respect the decisions of court.
ADNAN OKTAR: But the fact that the Hurriyet daily, a newspaper owned by Aydın Doğan, declared that I will be sentenced two days before even the formal decision was announced, that is to say, that the court verdict would be reversed and that the final verdict would be imprisonment seemed a bit dark and awkward to me. I do consider the court free of this, but those people using such statements seemed very dark to me. This should be examined. Because even we could get this information only after 2 days. We didn’t know it then. I mean this was not something told, it was classified information. They had received this information from an unknown source and the words used, that heading “Adnan Hodja is finally burnt out!”, implicated the final result of the court case. They used an expression which would mean the result of the court will be approved by the Supreme Court as well. I mean where do they get such detailed information and where do they get the courage to assert such claims. That is really odd, but I repeatedly state that I consider the court free of this completely. I am not saying that these people acted on instructions to do that. However that is a puzzling situation.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay, and in terms of the case, this has been going on for a long time as I understand it. There’s been many years before the case was first brought. What is his view? Is this, is he being persecuted by some parts of the government because of what he has been saying about evolution and other political kinds of issues? Is this just pure persecution does he think? Or are there other forces behind, like this gentleman that you described who is the publisher? Does he have an agenda that’s being played out here? I’m just trying to probe a little bit, why would the government,-which is an Islamic government now-, why would they be doing this?
ADNAN OKTAR: I told you before, Taha Akyol and Cemil Çicek worked in the same office as lawyers for many years. They were very close friends, they have influence on each other. Aydın Doğan is also another person who has influence over Taha Akyol. There is a triplet structure here. I am now telling you about issues that puzzle me, this influence they have on each other puzzles me. This system also puzzles me. However, it is the alleged Ergenekon terror organization and freemasonry that make the real effect. The alleged Ergenekon terror organization is the sword of freemasonry and their emblem is also masonic. It has a structure that bears all of masonic symbols. Consequently, freemasonry makes use of some people. But I am not telling you that Cemil Cicek, Taha Akyol and Aydın Doğan are freemasons, that is not what I meant. However, I find this alliance peculiar and it puzzles me. I find some events that happened during his time, the ones I just told you about quite strange. However, I consider the Supreme Court and other courts free of this.
ADNAN OKTAR: In the past days there was a news in the newspapers showing that an important member of the Supreme Court of Appeals and again an important member of the alleged Ergenekon terror organization, that is to say someone who is being tried right now for being a member of the alleged Ergenekon terror organization, were in the same environment and they were very intimate, they were close friends with each other. That is to say such structures of course does make us feel disturbed and suspicious.
MARC KAUFMAN: What is the name again of the terror organization?
ADNAN OKTAR: Alleged Ergenekon terror organization. Deep state structure. Covert deep state structure. That is communist based deep state structure. An organization existing for 150 years. They have killed thousands of people so far.
MARC KAUFMAN: Are they in the government now? I’m little confused about that. Are they members of the government today? Or how do they maintain their influence?
ADNAN OKTAR: I believe the government, I do believe that Tayyip Erdoğan is sincere. He is a pure Anatolian person, an honest person and I believe in the sincerity of his devoutness. I know that he would not get involved in these dark matters. Yet there is a great pressure of the alleged Ergenekon organization on the government. It has threats and pressure on the government. This is clearly seen.
MARC KAUFMAN: I know that he has several times proposed to Richard Dawkins that they have a debate. What is the reason why he would like to do that and if it would be possible, where would he like it to happen?
ADNAN OKTAR: I invite him to Turkey once again, through you as well. It is for sure that we will be very respectful and humane towards him, he may come here as our guest. We will treat him in the best way. Let us organize a one-hour or a two-hours debate program. However, assured of a defeat Dawkins does in no way wish to come here. He argues with students of secondary education, with priests and Rabbis, but refrains strongly from arguing with me. He says “he’s no scientist”. Darwin was also no scientist, yet he follows in his steps. Besides neither priests, nor high school students and secondary school students are scientists, still he argues with them. There is some insincerity here. He is obviously reluctant. He is assured of being defeated. Let him come and see the truth. Already his beliefs seemed to have changed. Now he claims that human beings were created by aliens from space. It seems a while later he may tell that Allah has created human beings. Once he had come this far it seems to me that he would admit that Allah had created in the next step. Since he accepted the extraordinariness in creation. I mean, he believes that chromosomes were made by one being or beings who are far superior to human mind and came from space, which in effect means believing in creation. Since when we ask him who created the aliens, his answer would be Allah.
MARC KAUFMAN: Two questions. One is; does he consider Richard Dawkins to be a dangerous man? And the second question which has to the book that I’m working on is, in Islam is there anything in the Qur’an or the teachings that would lead people to either accept or reject the notion or the idea that there could be life beyond the Earth? That’s what I’ve been talking to many scientists about, they believe that in the next - in not too many years they probably will find life elsewhere. Would this cause any problem in Islam?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, it is possible. No, it does not contradict.
ADNAN OKTAR: I would like to give you more information so that you can establish the connections better, because some parts were a bit scattered, so I will tell you these for you to understand better. The person who conducts the trials opened against us is Rezzan Aydınoğlu, attorney Rezzan Aydınoğlu. She is the attorney who has opened all the cases against us, she is the one who is assigned for this work. She is also the attorney for Fatih Altaylı and Aydın Doğan, who is the owner of Hurriyet daily. Fatih Altaylı is a person who has worked for Aydın Doğan for years, then he left, but it seems that they still have close connections. Taha Akyol is currently active in Hurriyet daily, he works for Aydın Doğan. I believe he works in Milliyet daily. All these people in this team are in close interaction with each other. And almost all of these people are darwinists. Every so often Hurriyet publishes writings in favor of darwinism and they are very much troubled from us being antidarwinists, both Hurriyet and Milliyet newspapers. Since we have a structure that refutes their news incessantly, that declare the truth about the news that they publish erroneously and that continuously inform the Turkish public on this. Therefore we have a struggle of ideas with these newspapers. And they conduct the counter struggle in the legal procedures through Rezzan Aydınoğlu. But Aydın Doğan, Taha Akyol and Fatih Altaylı are people in connection with each other. It is important that I state these so that the matter can be understood. Moreover Taha Akyol is very intimate and close with the Minister of Justice Cemil Çicek.
ADNAN OKTAR: See, this is really meaningful. As you know an extensive article was published in New Humanist magazine about me. In that article attorney Rezzan Aydınoğlu says that the verdict of imprisonment will be given in October. She discloses the verdict that the Supreme Court of Appeals will give, long before the verdict is actually given. She says to the Supreme Court of Appeals that they will give this verdict and this constitutes a kind of pressure on the Court of Appeals. That is a very peculiar stand. I don’t know what effect did these have on you but it seems very suspicious, dark and puzzling to me for her to know what will happen in which month, for her to say that we would be sentenced. It is also strange that New Humanist published such an article. New Humanist magazine chose to struggle with me not based on my ideas, but upon bringing forth the issues that bears insults and slanders against me. This is a very insincere and atrocious way of struggle. If they wish to give an intellectual struggle against me, let them do so based on knowledge and science. Fighting against me with slanders, insults and games is very unbecoming, improper and disrespectful. Besides I find Rezzan Aydınoğlu’s and also Hurriyet’s knowledge about what will happen long before they actually happen, very puzzling. I find Hurriyet’s knowing that I would be sentenced and Rezzan Aydınoğlu’s saying, months before the verdict, that the imprisonment verdict will be ratified and also saying that this will happen in October, very awkward. And of course I do think that these are issues which should be pondered upon.
ADNAN OKTAR: Another puzzling incident is this: Our file consisting of 100 folders regarding this court case had just arrived to the Supreme Court of Appeals and this lady member of the Supreme Court of Appeals skimmed over our file consisting of 100 folders -You know they increased the imprisonment penalty from 2 years to 3 years for me, adding 1 year more for a reason I still don’t know. The court did not clarify the reason for increasing it for 1 year which alone is also another reason for annulment as regards to the resolutions of the General Penalty Commission of the Supreme Court of Appeals, this is another matter I should stress on.- Among these 100 folders only 1 contains accusations about us. The rest 99 folders are the evidences for the defense. I mean they are statements of the witnesses, forensic medicine reports and alike. This is the content of those files. The lady judge just looked at files and said “since this is an accusation, a court case that consists of 100 folders, the 3 years imprisonment sentence given to these people is not enough, we should increase it even more” and she said that in front of a professor of law. She bore witness to what she said. She knows that she said such a word. And also the professor of law who was present there at that moment is a witness to this. This is also very striking. I mean before even looking at these folders, without knowing what is what, without knowing that 99 of these folders consists of evidences for defense, without knowing that only 1 of these folders are accusations, her saying “3 years of imprisonment is not enough, let’s increase it even more” is very surprising and unbelievable.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I could see that he’s very concerned about the case. I certainly understand that. I’d just like to go back to Richard Dawkins for a second. There’s a question that I asked, does he consider Richard Dawkins to be dangerous man?
ADNAN OKTAR: No, he’s very likeable, cute.
MARC KAUFMAN: But his ideas, what he says?
ADNAN OKTAR: His ideas are just wrong. But if he would have a debate with me, I would convince him. He says about me that they should not give me pen and paper, -he also is certain that I am going to jail-, he says that they should not give me pen and paper, he warns that I will continue writing even in jail. Indeed I would continue writing even in jail insha’Allah.
ADNAN OKTAR: I wrote many of my books while I was in prison.
MARC KAUFMAN: Does he consider himself a scientist?
ADNAN OKTAR: No. I am a writer but I love science. Science is an obligatory blessing that a Muslim should seek. Science is very important for Muslim. That is, every Muslim should, in one way or another, be a scientist.
MARC KAUFMAN: In some of the articles that I’ve read, it says that there are, I don’t know, 20 or 30 people who are themselves trained in science, who frequently help in terms of organizing or writing the books, providing information for the books. These are people here in Istanbul, or in Turkey. Is that accurate information?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, that is true. 30 people. We have a group of 30 people consisting of professors and assistant professors. They provide the photographs, the documents and the clerical works for me. Then I interpret them and make the necessary connections and leave the rest to the editors and other experts who deal with other details of books. I am also interested in the cover designs, illustrations used inside the books and the general appearance and aesthetics and I also make the paraphrases and connections. That is, all the connections and paraphrases in the book.
MARC KAUFMAN: Assuming for a second that he does not go to jail, what are his plans for the near future? Are there particular projects that he has in mind that he would like to do?
ADNAN OKTAR: Writing new books continuously.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. I do not want to take too much more of his time. But are there other nations where he knows his books have had a significant influence?
ADNAN OKTAR: We have been very influential in America. And also in Russia. For instance my book was published in Russian.
ADNAN OKTAR: We have been very influential in England. Also in France. That is, world-wide in general. We have also been very influential in Israel.
MARC KAUFMAN: So, were they designed to be more for nations that are not Muslim nations? Because he was describing the nations that are not. I guess another way of saying is that have they also been going out to Islamic nations. What kind of responses has he gotten there?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course, in fact Darwinist propaganda has made the extensive destruction in Muslim countries. For instance Syria was once under the sway of Stalinists as you know. Iraq, on the other hand, was under the control of Stalinists Communists. Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria were all under communist and socialist governments’ control. So was Palestine. After these activities of ours, those past remains [of communism] were thoroughly erased. Otherwise Darwinist propaganda was mainly targeting Muslim countries. Meanwhile, it has already demolished Christian countries. Even recently in Vatican, you know, a meeting was held to support Darwinism. This is the most obvious evidence revealing that Vatican was under repression and that Darwinist dictatorship was also imposing its views upon Vatican.
ADNAN OKTAR: One of the reasons why this alleged Ergenekon organization collapsed is the demolition of Darwinism since the alleged Ergenekon organization was based on Darwinism. Its members advocated Darwinism. When it collapsed, the organization no longer had power. That is, they lost their spiritual ground.
MARC KAUFMAN: He made a very interesting statement before that the Messiah Mahdi will return sometime in the next fifteen and twenty years, something like that? And that, that will happen in Turkey. How will people know who it is?
ADNAN OKTAR: Our Prophet (saas) explained this in details in the hadith. Torah also provides a detailed account of this subject. Messiah, that is, Messiah and Mahdi are the same. The Messiah mentioned in Torah and Mahdi as depicted by Muslims are the same. In the hadith our Prophet (saas) described Mahdi’s physical appearance and all the events that will happen before his coming. Almost all of these events have happened. And also I did not say “Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) will come.” I said, “He has already come.” There is an inaccuracy there. It is the Messiah [Jesus] (pbuh) who will come in fifteen to twenty years. Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) has already come.
MARC KAUFMAN: I see. Okay. But do people know this? I mean the return? I’m confused by that, something that large. Wouldn’t people know?
ADNAN OKTAR: It is known, of course. This is also the agenda in Turkey. As it is so in the entire Islamic world. This is also on the agenda of the Christian world. The reason why Iraq was invaded was the possibility of Hazrat Mahdi’s (pbuh) appearance. This is also the reason of Afghanistan’s invasion. They are expecting Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) as a person who will spill blood. However, Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) will eliminate all weapons, he will shed not a single drop of blood. He will not allow even a single person’s nose to bleed. He is a leader of love. He is a person who will lead the world with peace, abundance and justice. Evangelists have misinterpreted it and due to this unnecessary fear they committed a massive massacre in Iraq. They committed a similar massacre in Afghanistan. This is the main reason. Even George Bush says he has committed it by way of revelation. What he means by this is the explanations in the Gospel. Evangelists assumed that Muslims would be under the command of a leader who would shed blood. However the truth is otherwise. Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) is a man of love in its true sense. He will advocate love at the beginning and at the end. The [negative] force depicted in the Gospel is freemasonry. That is, it is stated that he will hold the economic power. Freemasonry holds 70-80 percent of the economic power in the world. It is the actual advocate, originator and protector of communism, fascism and Darwinism. It is also responsible of the bloodshed in the world. That is, the blood of 350 million people who were murdered. There is also another 1 billion people who were left disabled in the First World War and in the Second World War. As you see this is the entity known to be the anti-christ It has come and gave the damage. Now Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) and the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will unite to remove this destruction and bring love, peace and brotherhood to the world.
MARC KAUFMAN: But the Mahdi is already among us?
ADNAN OKTAR:Yes, Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) has already come.
MARC KAUFMAN: Has he had a communication of any sort? Or is there some way that he is certain? Is there some reason why he is certain that Mahdi has come?
ADNAN OKTAR: We ascertain them from the portents. Oktar can cite some of the most important portents of his coming. Yes, you can cite the most important ones.
OKTAR BABUNA: The signs of the appearance of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh) are:
There is going to be a bloody attack to the Kaaba. This happened in 1979.
Stopping the flow of the Euphrates that happened in 1975 because Keban dam was built.
The occupation of the Afghanistan, one of the signs that happened in 1979.
Iran-Iraq war in 1980, this happened also.
There will be two comets, Halley comet in 1986 and Lulin comet passed this year. These are described in the hadith also.
Sun and moon eclipses in the month of Ramadan in two following years with 15 days apart. This happened in 1981 and 1986. Sun and moon eclipses. You can check this from the Internet. In the month of Ramadan and two following years, 15 days apart.
Also, the destruction of Baghdad by flames, Iraqi war.
Iraqis will be left penniless.
Division of Iraq in three parts.
Army vanishes in the dessert. That happened in the Iraqi war. Iraqi army vanished.
There are more than 150 signs.
Occupation of Azerbaijan, for example.
Economic crisis is described.
Years of drought, and then years of flood after that. These are all happening.
Widespread massacres.
Annihilation of cities (Nagasaki, Hiroshima for example).
And many other signs.
They all happened. More than 150 signs from the appearance of Hazrat Mahdi (pbuh).
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. He’s been very kind with his time. I don’t want to take too much more of it but I have couple more questions. I spoke before coming here to a gentleman named John Morris who is the head of the ICR. He had kind things to say. He also has come to Turkey to try to find Noah’s Ark and other things. But I guess my question is: ”Has John Morris come here and spoken with Mr. Oktar? Or have they communicated vis a vis?”
ADNAN OKTAR: No, we did not, but my friends spoke to him in Turkey.
OKTAR BABUNA: I personally met him here in Turkey and our friends also went to the United States to meet him.
MARC KAUFMAN: How important was ICR in the beginning of Harun Yahya in terms of putting together the information that he wanted to communicate?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course, very good research and information are available but it is actually the fossils that are very important. And the fact that proteins did not come into existence by chance is important. That is, these two evidences are important. Thanks to many scientific research, it became possible to determine that proteins could not have come into existence by chance. But fossils are original. They belong to us; that is they are our research. Fossil photographs delivered the greatest blow. That is, we have obtained the real results by means of fossils. They have been defeated in the face of fossil photographs and the matter is closed. It is an explicit, first hand evidence. It is an undeniable evidence.
MARC KAUFMAN: These are some of the fossils?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes.
MARC KAUFMAN: Would he mind if I took a couple pictures as we’re just finishing up and I could ask a question, you could ask a question and while he is responding in Turkish, I could take the pictures?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course. Insha’Allah.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay no problem. Let’s see. One of the things that I do not understand because I’m new to Turkey is how the different political, you know how different political parties have operated and have come into being. It was suggested to me that Mr. Oktar had worked with the current government in its early years, before it came to power. Could he tell me whether or not that’s accurate?
ADNAN OKTAR: Not during its early years, but Mr. Erdoğan was in touch with our friends during the time he was the mayor [of Istanbul]. They had contact with him then but we did not provide any help or support during the stage of founding the government or the party.
MARC KAUFMAN: Does he think that this is, that the Islamic party is good for Turkey, does he support the party?
ADNAN OKTAR: Erdoğan is a moderate person. He has a moderate attitude, in fact I generally do support rightist parties, almost all of them. That is, I support the Nationalist Public Party, the Felicity Party and the Justice and Development Party. But of course, this is not only limited to the Justice and Development Party.
MARC KAUFMAN: Is that different than Mr. Erdoğan’s party?
OKTAR BABUNA: No, they are rightist.
MARC KAUFMAN: Like Erdoğan.
OKTAR BABUNA: Yes, rightist and conservative.
MARC KAUFMAN: Very last question then also if there is anything further that he would like to tell me then please do so. My last question is this; when people talk about the book, you know they, this book, they say you know it’s very beautiful and very high quality paper, very high quality reproduction and they wonder how can this group afford to publish all this and especially since they generally don’t charge. So let me ask that as a question, you know to tell people how is it that this book comes into being, are there, is this from, only from the group or there are other people who are also supporting this?
ADNAN OKTAR: The publishing house publishes the books, of course, it is not free. With the money the publishing house earns from the sales of the books, it re-publishes them and it goes on like this. That is, the style is the same as the publishing houses that publish Dawkins’ books.
MARC KAUFMAN: But is this book sold or is this given out, I am confused?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course, it is being sold. For instance this is also sold to Russia. It was published in ample amounts. They were published in ample amounts and accordingly sold to Russia in bulk.
MARC KAUFMAN: And in the United States do you know what this costs in the United States for people to buy?
ADNAN OKTAR: Around 100 dolars.
MARC KAUFMAN: Hundred dolars. Very good. Okay. And is there anything further that he would like me to know? Because earlier there were some things about his case that he wanted to describe. Are there other things about these issues or his case that he would like to describe further?
ADNAN OKTAR: Maybe we have not made enough emphasis on the prejudicial issue. That is, we have notified the Court about the torture that we were subjected to and asked to regard it as the prejudicial issue adding that there exists a case about it. But the Court has not waited for it. That is, they did not consider it as a prejudicial issue. If they did, the case does not expire under statute of limitations. The time freezes; that is, the period is terminated and the problem of statue of limitations is eliminated. Despite this the Court refused to wait and gave its verdict. According to the Supreme Court Penalty Board this is a reason to reverse the judgment. It is also beneficial to know this. In fact we have stressed this before but it would be useful to explain it clearly.
ADNAN OKTAR: Because there are 11 forensic medicine reports. We have 11 forensic medicine reports verifying the injuries they made on 11 of our friends. Many of them were electrified. We were forced to sit on concrete for 7 days with our hands tied from back and eyes covered. We were forced to say many things in a state of sleep deprivation and under constant torture. But we denied our statements in front of the prosecutor and also in the presence of the court. They told us that once we gave those testimonies we had to prove that they were untrue. That is, they wanted us to prove the falsity of our statements. That is why we have been dealing with these for months. Being obliged to prove that the testimonies we gave under duress were untrue, we have to deal with these baseless claims and this, of course, exhaust us and take too much time. We have been dealing with this subject for a decade now but the Court did not accept it as a prejudicial issue. Of course, we have respect for any verdict the Court will give. We respect all the verdicts that will be given by the Courts and the Supreme Court. But according to the provisions of the Supreme Court General Penalty Commission these are reasons to reverse the verdict. That is, the Supreme Court of Appeals’ General Penalty Commission dictates to make such a situation a prejudicial issue. We have submitted such a decision to the Supreme Court.
ADNAN OKTAR: I mean, the chief of police who made us give these testimonies under duress is at the moment imprisoned with the claim of being a member of the alleged Ergenekon organization. Furthermore a journalist, who supported this person and a man of Aydın Doğan at that time, is also in prison now and is accused of being a member of the alleged Ergenekon organization. The other people related to them are also in prison. Oktar will tell each of them now.
OKTAR BABUNA: The head of the police department at that time, that have taken the testimonies under torture. His name is Adil Serdar Saçan. He is in jail right now because of being a member of the alleged Ergenekon Terror Organization. Also there was Aydın Doğan's man, Tuncay Özkan, who was the head of his major TV stations at that time.
ADNAN OKTAR: This chief of police was giving all sorts of information to the press. They aroused indignation in the press by running headlines in newspapers. One of the reasons why we were arrested was the indignation they caused. That is, our being arrested was made possible by creating such indignation. Tuncay Özkan carried out this task of creating such indignation.
OKTAR BABUNA: And alsothere are some other people of alleged terror organization in connection with this also.For example Ümit Sayın.
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes Ümit Sayın, he is also related to them.
OKTAR BABUNA: He is part of the alleged Ergenekon Terror Organization and he is in jail right now and he is on trial. And also Ataman Yıldırım. With his websites he was attacking Mr. Adnan Oktar and he is also in jail right now because of the alleged Ergenekon Terror Organization and connected to other people also. Shall we talk about Tantan?
ADNAN OKTAR: How was Tantan’s connection?
OKTAR BABUNA: In their MSN conversations the members of the alleged Ergenekon organization say that they have the power to make him do whatever they want.
ADNAN OKTAR: For instance this is also very odd. Was he the Interior Minister of the time? Yes. He is the one who was behind the operation behind us. Who says this to him?
OKTAR BABUNA: In the MSN correspondence between Ümit Sayın and another person there are statements indicating that they can make him do whatever they want.
ADNAN OKTAR: He says he can make Tantan do whatever he wishes.
OKTAR BABUNA: Yes, it is in the file.
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, this is also odd.
OKTAR BABUNA: Saadettin Tantan was the Minister of the Interior Affairs of that time in the government and who executed this operation against us, Science Research Foundation. And there are in MSN chats of alleged terror organization members. They say we can make him do whatever we want. He was the top person in the operation at that time. He is not in the government anymore. But at that time. Shall I talk about Emin Şirin?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes.
OKTAR BABUNA: And also Emin Şirin, he was a former member of the parliament, and he was taken under custody because of alleged Ergenekon terror organization as being on trial right now. He came to the court to the trial of Mr. Adnan Oktar with some people and he is also part of this alleged Ergenekon terror organization, he is not in jail right now but he is on trial also. So these are the people who have connection with alleged Ergenekon terror organization and against Mr. Adnan Oktar and they are all connected to each other.
MARC KAUFMAN: When you were saying before, when he was saying before that there were 11 people who were, who had been tortured and also that they signed a statement, was he one of them or these were people who were part of the Scientific Research Foundation or Organization?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, I was also tortured. They electrified me from my feet and threatened to kill me at that time. Also my hands and arms were tied from the back and they made me sit on concrete blindfolded. They subjected me to sleep deprivation for 7 days.
ADNAN OKTAR: Emin Şirin was taken under custody as the person responsible for lobbying activities of the alleged Ergenekon organization. Upon a parliamentary question he submitted to the Turkish Great Assembly they initiated a new operation against us. Among the minutes of the alleged Ergenekon organization there was also a document stating that the parliamentary questions he submitted to the Assembly were dictated to him by the Organization. Of course the truth will be revealed as a result of the the judicial process but in the indictment of the Ergenekon organization there exists such a claim.
MARC KAUFMAN: When did this happen that he was arrested and that tortured with the 10 other people?
ADNAN OKTAR: In 1999. Those who were taken under custody were very crowded. Those who were arrested were around 15-16 people.
MARC KAUFMAN: And then was he also forced under torture to sign a confession for something that you know that was alleged at that time?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course. Police waited right next to me. They wanted me to write down whatever they wanted. They ordered me to sign it and so did I.
ADNAN OKTAR: Then they brought me in front of the hidden camera and wanted me to repeat what I was told and so did I. Then they submitted it to the Court. Normally hidden camera is also illegal. It is also an invalid evidence. But they still resorted to such a method.
ADNAN OKTAR: They made me make a lots of trials regarding to what I will tell and how I will talk. All at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.
MARC KAUFMAN: And was the prosecution, does he believe that it was related to the writings that he was doing about Darwin, about other things ? The... being arrested and being tortured then the court case, was this inspired by his writing in the sense that they want him, someone wanted him to stop writing?
ADNAN OKTAR: Whatever conclusion in general could be driven from all those I have said, of course I can’t say “this” is the reason explicitly.
ADNAN OKTAR: But of course I consider the Court and the judges free from this. I do not say that they were directed or they resorted it under the influence of various organizations. I consider them free such claims but I intend to tell the structure of the organization which is against us here.
MARC KAUFMAN: And this is very last thing. If he had an opportunity to talk to people, the people of America, about the issue of Creation and evolution what would he like to say? What would be his message to them?
ADNAN OKTAR: First of all, I love Americans very much. I love both Americans and Europeans, for they are happy, extravert, sincere people. I want them to be more sincere in their beliefs, more devout. I want Jews to be more devout, Christians to be more devout and Muslims to be more devout. I want them to love and protect one another. Christians, Jews and Muslims should have no conflicts among one another. On the contrary, they should support and help one another since we all believe in the same Allah. Let us struggle with all our might to bring peace, brotherhood and love to the world. Darwinism is a deceit and a fallacy. They deceived the world with Darwinism. Darwinism is the root of lovelessness and terror in the world. By communicating the truth, I want people to be happy. And I want the people of America to love one another.
MARC KAUFMAN: Okay. Very good. Thanks.
ADNAN OKTAR: I also thank you. It is very nice to know you. Insha’Allah we will meet again.
ADNAN OKTAR: If the case about torture is also concluded in penalty for the other party, then we will be acquitted. Did I mention it earlier?
ADNAN OKTAR: However, the other party makes so much effort to extend the time of the judgment process but insha’Allah it will be concluded soon.
MARC KAUFMAN: Very good. Well I will be in contact with the woman who helped set this up. If I... I’ll ask her to let me know if there is any decision made about these different cases, so that I could then perhaps write about it also.
ADNAN OKTAR: That would be very nice. Insha’Allah.
Nov 07, 2009
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